EDIT: It's also interesting to read this some 15~ years later, especially after the Hawaii text message warning of incoming ICBM attack scare....
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Username: MarkSheppard
Nickname: Slightly oblivious
Posts: 2069
Date: 1/7/07 10:37
Arc Light by Eric L Harry (and Nuclear War)
Reading this book, written in '94, about a pretty big exchange. One thing that niggles me is that while the book does have working ABM, namely the Moscow ABM defense, and some warheads being off course due to the fact that passing over the pole has never actually been done in a live testfire....but it has the "high altitude EMP" brainbug.
Still good though.
It got me to wondering Stuart, was there any thought put towards alerting the civilian population in the 30~ minutes or so before initations occur on CONUS? A simple message broadcast on every media telling people to GET TO THE BASEMENTS, etc would save a lot of casualties, rather than having a lot caught in the open....but what about the possibility of mass chaos and panic?
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Username: DocMartyn
Nickname: Old Friend
Posts: 2826
Date: Unknown
Panic?
"A simple message broadcast on every media telling people to GET TO THE BASEMENTS, etc would save a lot of casualties, rather than having a lot caught in the open....but what about the possibility of mass chaos and panic?"
I imagine that many of them would panic anyway, given that the flash, thermal pulse and then the supersonic cloud of debris rushing towards them would not tend to make one have a relaxed frame of mind.
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Username: Mike Kozlowski
Nickname: Old Friend
Posts: 3885
Date: 1/7/07 15:15
Re: Arc Light by Eric L Harry (and Nuclear War)
Mark,
Although I eagerly await Elder Slade's comments, let me throw my nickel on the grass.
The old Emergency Broadcasting System was AFAIK the only way we had to let the population at large know that Something Very Bad was about to happen...and it WASN'T very good at it. In 1971 somebody inadvertently tripped the system and the results were less than effective. A lot of stations never got the signal, and most of those that did ignored it. I think only a handful of stations actually shut down as per the regs. Worse still, confusion over what had actually happened lasted almost three hours - during which time everybody went on with business as usual.
Check this for a great story about it:
http://ebstest.stlmedia.net/
And this for some more very good stuff about the EBS:
http://www.akdart.com/ebs.html
In addition, the time constraints were something that the system never got around. EBS and CONELRAD (the original EBS,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CONELRAD
were very good for the pre-ICBM era when there would have been, even at jet bomber speeds, as much as four to six hours before bombs started going off. The '30-minute' window has a whiff of urban legend about it - SLBMs would have been arriving in a lot less time than that, and we were always told that by the time inbound ICBMs had been detected, the President notified and the go order given, there might have been 4-6 minutes left. Given the performance of the EBS during the '71 goof, it's more than likely that the only warning most Americans would have had was a sudden flash of light. And even if it had somehow been activated in that short amount of time, the only real effect it would have had (remember that after the Cuban Missile Crisis, shelter maintenance and construction essentially fell to zero) was best described by a guy named Edward Zuckerman in a book called The Day After World War II:
"Well then, I guess a lotta people are just gonna die all tensed up."
Mike
"F is for fire that burns down the town -
"U is for uranium - Bomb! -
"N is for no surviv-ORS! -
"Down in the deep blue sea!!
- Mr. Plankton
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Username: MarkSheppard
Nickname: Slightly oblivious
Posts: 2070
Date: 1/7/07 19:55
Re: Arc Light by Eric L Harry (and Nuclear War)
The '30-minute' window has a whiff of urban legend about it
Well, the scenario that the book posits has no SLBM launches due to a variety of reasons; so we've got 30 minutes.
The book is set in a hypothetical future (I'm guessing somewhere around 2004), since it mentions that there was a Russo-Chinese war in the recent past; and unfortunately, there's no SAC :\ , just ACC.
But it's a very good tense book
]FLASH REPORT
FROM: CINNCACC//J3 NMCC WASHINGTON D.C.
TO: ALL ACC LAUNCH CREWS
AIG 9734
TOP SECRET
FJO//001//0547Z
1. SEA PLANEAPPLE JACK. RUSSIAN ICBM STRIKE IN PROGRESS. EST. TOT 055512Z. 1,062 RVS CONFIRMED. TARGETS CONUS.
2. VALID EAM AND NCO BY NCA CONFIRMED. REPEAT. VALID EAM AND NCO BY NCA CONFIRMED.
3. GOOD SHOOTING.
RATHMAN
GEN, USAF CINCACC
Plus a lot of scenes set on US aircraft, etc, including one on a B-1B near Moscow as it launches SRAMs away. Try and find this one at your library if you can, Mike.
The first Russian attack results in this
[IMAGE]
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Username: Mike Kozlowski
Nickname: Old Friend
Posts: 3886
Date: 1/7/07 22:07
Re: Arc Light by Eric L Harry (and Nuclear War)
Mark-
Oh, definitely gonna get that one. But am wondering - the pic lays out a beautiful counterforce attack, but no SLBMs? A straight ICBM attack would have left way too much time for our birds to get off the ground.
Mike
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Username: Seer Stuart
Nickname: The Prince of Darkness
Posts: 5601
Date: 1/7/07 22:15
Re: Arc Light by Eric L Harry (and Nuclear War)
The original plan was for an emergency warning system that would include radio and television alerts and sirens going off.
I read a hilariously funny paper once on the development of the sirens used for a nuclear alert which went into the problems of testing them. One of them was that the spec said the sirens had to be audible (a lot of) miles away from their location with the result that the people mch closer to them were suffering quite serious ill-effects.
Nearly all of that went when civil defense fell into disrepute back in the early 1960s. Now, the emeregncy broadcast system is all that's left. The problem there is that its likely to give only 5 - 10 minutes warning and statistically more people are in protected locations without any warning than there would be after five minutes. Without a shelter system, a warning really doesn't buy very much.
About the only advice I can give is that if you really must be around when a nuclear war starts, be in Moscow. The warning system is good, the ABMs work and there are a lot of very deep shelters.
Nations do not survive by setting examples for others.
Nations survive by making examples of others
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Username: Mike Kozlowski
Nickname: Old Friend
Posts: 3887
Date: 1/7/07 22:15
And Speaking Of Alternate History....
...The classic WWIII RPG Twilight 2000 is being re-released as Twlight 2013, with an all new backstory that, as I understand it, will have WWIII growing out of the WOT...
Mike
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Username: James1978
Nickname: Geography Teacher
Posts: 920
Date: 1/7/07 22:44
Re: Arc Light by Eric L Harry (and Nuclear War)
But am wondering - the pic lays out a beautiful counterforce attack, but no SLBMs? A straight ICBM attack would have left way too much time for our birds to get off the ground.
Suffice to say that there is a political dimension revolving around the Russo-Chinese War that takes place prior to the Russian ICBM launch and has a great deal to do with how the nuclear exchange plays out. There is a good reason it was a straight ICBM attack.
James
Fighter pilots make movies, Bomber crews make history.
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Username: declan64
Nickname: Root
Posts: 1386
Date: 1/8/07 5:50
Re: Arc Light by Eric L Harry (and Nuclear War)
But am wondering - the pic lays out a beautiful counterforce attack, but no SLBMs? A straight ICBM attack would have left way too much time for our birds to get off the ground.
I'd spoil it by getting too much into the book, but basically the russians screwed up with a piss poor firing solution generated by someone that should never have been near the russian football.
Its an engaging book that had me getting misty eyed at one point, but its been his only decent one. Avoid the others.
Declan
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Username: Boydfish
Nickname: Old Friend
Posts: 1979
Date: 1/8/07 5:53
Re: Arc Light by Eric L Harry (and Nuclear War)
A simple message broadcast on every media telling people to GET TO THE BASEMENTS, etc would save a lot of casualties, rather than having a lot caught in the open....but what about the possibility of mass chaos and panic?
Not really feasible. Look at how badly garbled and miscued the advice on sealing your house with plastic to avoid bioweapons.
"British Columbia, the land where drugs are illegal, but socially acceptable solution to your personal problems and where guns are legal but socially unacceptable solution to your personal problems. This explains why we have the highest property crime rate of any English speaking nation"
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Username: declan64
Nickname: Root
Posts: 1387
Date: 1/8/07 5:54
Re: Arc Light by Eric L Harry (and Nuclear War)
It got me to wondering Stuart, was there any thought put towards alerting the civilian population in the 30~ minutes or so before initations occur on CONUS? A simple message broadcast on every media telling people to GET TO THE BASEMENTS, etc would save a lot of casualties, rather than having a lot caught in the open....but what about the possibility of mass chaos and panic?
Then I have no idea ,but as for now simple enough to get every single cell phone provider to send out a text message stating the nature of the emergency. Or over ride the cell carriers and send one out on their networks.
I doubt it would be useful enough for a nuclear exchange but other disasters to be would be covered.
Declan
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Username: The Argus
Nickname: I Like to Watch
Posts: 859
Date: Unknown
Re: Arc Light by Eric L Harry (and Nuclear War)
What about Bejing?
I don't know about the ABM's or the warning system, and the shelters arn't what I'd call deep, well not those I saw anyway. But they are extensive. It seemed like just about every commercial basement had an entrance when I did a tour in the mid 80's. From memory we entered though a cinema and came out a trap door behind the counter of a silk shop a good few km's away.
shane
Rule .303
Shoot straight, you bastards.
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Username: Jimlad1
Nickname: Old Friend
Posts: 1002
Date: 1/8/07 19:08
Re: Arc Light by Eric L Harry (and Nuclear War)
I suppose a lot would depend on whether TTW measures were in place. If the situation was one of heightened tension, then its likely more people would have been listening in. In the UK the plans called for the BBC to switch to the Wartime Broadcasting Service, one national channel for the whole country. That way the message would have been spread quickly (Attack Warning Red!). Whether it would have worked or not is another matter entirely.
Interestingly the new crop of declassified docs about UK Central Govt plans have some lovely turns of phrase about those destined for BURLINGTON/TURNSTILE to govern what was left of the UK - the phrase 'victims' turns up more than once!
Guns don't kill people. Bullets kill people.
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Username: Mike Kozlowski
Nickname: Old Friend
Posts: 3889
Date: 1/8/07 20:20
Re: Arc Light by Eric L Harry (and Nuclear War)
Jimlad makes a point that I admittedly overlooked and should be seriously chastised for - in any period of heightened tension, there's going to be a TV set on somewhere (think the buildup to Desert Storm - my Recruiting Squadron HQ had four sets, plus a big screen in the conference room for LTC Boynton, a former B-52 BN) and we had one in each of the recruiting offices. However, until the advent of 24/7 cable TV in the late 80s, I think my initial conclusion - that it wouldn't have been all that effective - still stands.
The idea of a national cellphone alert is not only technically possible, but a damned good one. Trouble is, I have a feeling that these days a LOT of folks would be skittish (without good cause) of a system that lets the Government text message you.
In the early 60s, the Feds came up with a system that would light up every TV set and radio in the country using a system that would have been built into the sets. Called PERKI, it would have actually been tied into the Safeguard ABM system and let you know where NOT to evacuate to. Budget constraints kept it from ever going into service, but the point is it was doable.
Mike
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Username: declan64
Nickname: Root
Posts: 1388
Date: 1/9/07 9:05
Re: Arc Light by Eric L Harry (and Nuclear War)
Trouble is, I have a feeling that these days a LOT of folks would be skittish (without good cause) of a system that lets the Government text message you.
Well the idea would not be to do it on a personal level, but at the carrier level. If the system were to be implemented it would most likely be at the weather threat level and not for any military reasons.
Say for instance, some agency that monitors earthquakes projects a sizeable quake for the region of california as an example. Since they can project down to almost the epicentre of the quake, they can enact protocols that pre empt normal carrier operations and target the exact cells that border the epi center.
Then there is the option of sending out tornado warnings for certain cell areas, I am even surprised that the local american carriers are not doing this even now, probably liability reasons.
The bottom line is how its implemented.
Declan
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Username: Zen9
Nickname: Old Friend
Posts: 928
Date: 1/9/07 20:24
Re: Arc Light by Eric L Harry (and Nuclear War)
In the UK you'd get a warning and then the BBC would show the film 'The Sound of Music', something to watch while you wait to die.
Had it ever happened I know quite a few people who'd end up praying for the bombs to come quickly, they just can't stand Julie Andrews;-)
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Username: Mike Kozlowski
Nickname: Old Friend
Posts: 3892
Date: 1/9/07 22:36
Re: Arc Light by Eric L Harry (and Nuclear War)
Zen-
Actually, at one point during the Eisenhower Administration, a PSA with the late Arthur Godfrey
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Godfrey
was recorded to be played if an attack was imminent or underway (there's some question as to exactly when it would be run), and frankly, as I'm old enough to remember Arthur Godfrey, he would have been the last guy I'd have wanted to tell me to duck and cover.
Mike
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Username: edgeplay cgo
Nickname: Fix bayonets
Posts: 6735
Date: 1/10/07 22:48
Re: Arc Light by Eric L Harry (and Nuclear War)
But you could enjoy your cup of Brisk Lipton Tea while waiting to be incinerated.
<grinning ducking and running>
Dennis
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Username: Lord Herrick
Nickname: Chief Prankster
Posts: 1388
Date: 1/10/07 23:17
Re: Arc Light by Eric L Harry (and Nuclear War)
That's assuming you want to be stuck in the bunker with the people around you for several weeks.
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Username: Seer Stuart
Nickname: The Prince of Darkness
Posts: 5609
Date: 1/11/07 0:54
Re: Arc Light by Eric L Harry (and Nuclear War)
That's assuming you want to be stuck in the bunker with the people around you for several weeks.
That's where your own personal geiger counter comes in useful. If you're not under a fall-out plume and not too close to GZ you could be out in 12 - 24 hours.
On the other hand, if you're down deep and its hot up top, you might be grateful for a lot of company. Just think of them as walking 24-hour ration packs........
Nations do not survive by setting examples for others.
Nations survive by making examples of others
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Username: ATMahan
Nickname: Future Historian
Posts: 1822
Date: 1/11/07 2:24
Re: Arc Light by Eric L Harry (and Nuclear War)
I've seen pictures of some of you guys. I'd say that Karl, Kevin and a mysterious fuzzy presence could probably last me a week or so apiece...
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Username: Lord Herrick
Nickname: Chief Prankster
Posts: 1389
Date: Unknown
Re: Arc Light by Eric L Harry (and Nuclear War)
Depending on which denizens you shacked up with, that could resember a shotgun fight in a phone booth.
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Username: MicaelJ
Nickname: Old Friend
Posts: 314
Date: 1/11/07 11:55
Re: Arc Light by Eric L Harry (and Nuclear War)
Amusingly Sweden operates an emergency warning (sirens and TV/radio) system, which is also used for civilian emergencies such as chemical spills.
So what's amusing about it? Well there's have plenty of population shelters around, but they take about 48 hours to prepare for usage after the order has been given.
Not exactly the most practical arrangement in the modern day.
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Username: drunknsubmrnr
Nickname: Old Friend
Posts: 1796
Date: 1/11/07 15:38
Re: Arc Light by Eric L Harry (and Nuclear War)
Karl would taste much better than I would....He's "well-marbled".
Kevin
Normal human beings don't get dolphins.
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Username: K Newman
Nickname: Bubblehead Cop
Posts: 4446
Date: 1/11/07 22:29
Re: Arc Light by Eric L Harry (and Nuclear War)
I'm better armed than you and Kevin is good with electricity.
You'd be better off elsewhere.
Meanwhile, Kev and I will be dining on roast cat.
When you care enough to send the very best....
http://pageproducer.mylifeline.net/newmank/D5small.jpg
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Username: ATMahan
Nickname: Future Historian
Posts: 1823
Date: 1/12/07 0:36
Re: Arc Light by Eric L Harry (and Nuclear War)
You don't know what I have stashed up here.
Besides, as was pointed out, you're probably more tender than the cat anyway. Given Kevin's skill, I'm certain we could rig up some sort of rotisserie system to make Ron Popeil green with envy.
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Username: MarkSheppard
Nickname: Slightly oblivious
Posts: 2082
Date: Unknown
Boinking this onto some track..
Mike, what was the SOP in the late 70s if CINCSAC was in Omaha and went up with the rest of SAC HQ?
Did CINCSAC devolve onto whoever was in LOOKING GLASS?
And just how retargetable was the bomber force at that time, if it's not getting into finger breaky territory?
Somehow I can't imagine using pre-made orders and training plans for specific targets would work very well, since you can't be sure which bomb wings make it off the ground before their bases get bucketfuls of instant sunshine, and there is the possibility of having to form composite bomb wings from the survivors of several bomb wings in midair...
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Username: Jeff Thomas
Nickname: Pathologically Intellectual
Posts: 1682
Date: 1/12/07 8:41
Sirens
Somebody (State of Washington, Geologic Survey, Coast Guard, ?) has a warning system in place waiting for an eruption of Mt. Rainier. Historically, big eruptions have triggered mudflows that covered big areas of what is now city. So they have sirens to tell everybody to get to high ground. A couple of years ago something tripped the system, nobody anywhere did anything. Civilians ignored it, and the first government response was to send somebody out in a jeep to see what was going on.
I'm not very impressed with people's response to such things. In contrast ten snowflakes will panic entire counties (see my rant in the bar.)
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Username: Mike Kozlowski
Nickname: Old Friend
Posts: 3898
Date: 1/12/07 13:17
Re: Boinking this onto some track..
Mark-
IIRC, if the Hole went, whoever was aboard Looking Glass became CINCSAC, for at least as long as the war lasted. It was assumed that if CINCSAC was at Omaha, he was dead.
Now as far as retargeting the bombers goes, it could be done from Looking Glass, but it wasn't easy or guaranteed. (The late 70s system has been replaced at least twice, so I'm pretty sure this isn't finger-breaking territory any more.) The real problem was that Looking Glass wasn't likely to know exactly how many birds had gotten off the ground or where they were. They knew of course where everything was pre-attack, but after that it became much more problematic. If there was some warning, even as little as a few hours, SAC was quite capable of setting things up so that it could manage the fight from Looking Glass to a degree that would have surprised you. But in a bolt-from-the-blue scenario, things really did go to hell in that rocket-powered handbasket. I've been told that there was supposed to be a 'call-in' at some point after the first strike - but the bomber crews were going to be getting ready to shoot their way into Soviet airspace, a second strike was very likely, and severe communications problems - from weapons effects and degraded comm systems - were a given.
The first B-52s would have been hitting their targets 6 to 8 hours after the first strike - depending on exactly when Looking Glass went airborne (and don't assume there was only one Looking Glass airborne at any given time, especially in a crisis) there might not have been enough time for the Looking Glass crews to do more than get a blurry snapshot of the situation and try to hand it off to whatever ground-based CP had been established. In any event, the Looking Glass system would be out of business after about Strike +20 hours or so - just as the last bombers would in theory be recovering.
Mike
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Username: edgeplay cgo
Nickname: Fix bayonets
Posts: 6745
Date: 1/12/07 16:41
Re: Sirens
Civilians ignored it,
Reminds me of a time, shortly after my daughters arrived from Oz. There was a thunderstorm and the tornado siren went off. We were all on the back porch watching the lightning and listening to the siren. Ther was no tornado.
Suddenly the siren ceased.
Girl: "The siren stopped. What does that mean?"
Me: "Either the alert has passed ... or the tornado just sucked up the siren."
Dennis
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Username: ATMahan
Nickname: Future Historian
Posts: 1824
Date: 1/12/07 19:25
Re: Sirens
THAT reminds me of the reaction to tornado warnings in Minnesota growing up as a wayward youth.
"Sirens! Let's go look for the funnel clouds!"
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Username: JNiemczyk
Nickname: Old Friend
Posts: 247
Date: 1/12/07 23:41
Re: Arc Light by Eric L Harry (and Nuclear War)
Actually, at one point during the Eisenhower Administration, a PSA with the late Arthur Godfrey (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Godfrey ) was recorded to be played if an attack was imminent or underway (there's some question as to exactly when it would be run), and frankly, as I'm old enough to remember Arthur Godfrey, he would have been the last guy I'd have wanted to tell me to duck and cover.
Mike, part of the pre-recorded UK WTBS broadcast can be heard here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4565880.stm
Slightly unsettling in a way.
Duck and cover would probably not work in the UK, unless one lives in parts of the West Highlands or Wales. Most of us live a bit close to at least one major target (2 military, 1 comms, and 1 economic in my case).
That's where your own personal geiger counter comes in useful. If you're not under a fall-out plume and not too close to GZ you could be out in 12 - 24 hours.
Fall-out is not something I'd be worrying about, Stuart, as given I live within a few miles of Rosyth and a Backbone tower, I'd be the fall-out.
I don't think I'd bother with the old 'Protect and Survive' lean to.
There was an air raid siren in my town. I remember seeing it every day I walked to primary school, but I don't know when it was removed. I also remember that the old police boxes in Edinburgh and Glasgow had sirens on them, most looking a bit worse for wear, as can be seen in the pic I've included below.
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c350/ ... nburgh.jpg
Edinburgh Police box with siren.
That was always the main worry about the UKWMO siren network - that it would not work on the day.
'Arc Light' is a good, if slightly dated book now, but certainly worth a read. I bought it many years ago when it came out in paperback.
IIRC the book was gamed by members of the USAR.
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Username: Mike Kozlowski
Nickname: Old Friend
Posts: 3902
Date: 1/13/07 4:55
Re: Arc Light by Eric L Harry (and Nuclear War)
JN,
Good to see you again! That Beeb broadcast is something else..downright spooky. The Godfrey broadcast has been something of a mystery here for some years now and it was only a few years ago that its existence was even confirmed.
I know that some TV stations here stateside had a little 1-minute PSA that was supposed to be run before the bombs fell - it was an animated thing that basically said that the balloon would probably go up any minute now, and if it did don't panic and stay under cover till the Government gets there.
An aside - I don't know if this ever changed, but at least until the early 70s the plan was that if there was enough time to do so, the TV networks here would be pulled off the air and taken over by the DOD when it was believed that a Soviet strike was inevitable.
Mike
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Username: James1978
Nickname: Geography Teacher
Posts: 921
Date: 1/13/07 17:05
Re: Sirens
That sounds very similiar to my experiences growing up in Kansas.
James
Fighter pilots make movies, Bomber crews make history.
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Username: JNiemczyk
Nickname: Old Friend
Posts: 254
Date: 1/13/07 18:39
Re: Arc Light by Eric L Harry (and Nuclear War)
Yes, that Beeb broadcast is indeed very spooky. It sends a bit of a shiver down my spine when I hear it, probably because if it were being broadcast for real most of the UK would be an irradiated pile of rubble, me included.
I know that some TV stations here stateside had a little 1-minute PSA that was supposed to be run before the bombs fell - it was an animated thing that basically said that the balloon would probably go up any minute now, and if it did don't panic and stay under cover till the Government gets there.
Something on the lines of 'stick your head between your...' perhaps?
In the UK the TV network would have been replaced by a single channel as part of the War Time Broadcasting Service, run by the BBC from Wood Norton during the TTW phase. Though apparently it would not have broadcast post-strike, that being the province of radio.
There is a lot of good stuff on British war plans on the Subbrit site:
http://www.subbrit.org.uk/rsg/index.shtml
Specifically on war plans, this section is worth reading.
http://www.subbrit.org.uk/rsg/features/sfs/
A lot of our preparations seem to have been planned to go into much earlier than those in the US, as if the balloon did go up we would not have time to implement many of the measures. The warning network, for example, might not fully function in a 'bolt from the blue' attack.
At least our preparations never had to be put to a test, thank God.
Regards.
Jan.
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Username: Jimlad1
Nickname: Old Friend
Posts: 1003
Date: 1/14/07 21:40
Re: Arc Light by Eric L Harry (and Nuclear War)
The most recently revealed plans for BURLINGTON (known as Project ALBATROSS and only declassed about 2 weeks ago) suggest plans were afoot for the UK central bunker to have been occupied up to 30 days in advance as late as 1989 - what I wouldnt' give for that kind of I&W capability!
Guns don't kill people. Bullets kill people.<i></i>
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Username: JNiemczyk
Nickname: Old Friend
Posts: 257
Date: Unknown
Re: Arc Light by Eric L Harry (and Nuclear War)
That would be pretty impressive.
The most up to date info I'd seen from the '80s was that it was to have been an accretion centre for the surviving PYTHON groups post-strike. I see that Subbrit now has all the various codenames that Corsham enjoyed ( SUBTERFUGE (1954 1959), STOCKWELL (1959 1961), BURLINGTON (1961 1963), TURNSTILE (1963 1969), CHANTICLEER (1969 1987), and finally PERIPHERAL (1987 199?).
The last one rather says it all, I think
Jimlad, I suppose with your job you must get a better chance to see some of these declassified documents than the rest of us.
The best I've ever seen were ARP documents from the '30s marked SECRET, which ludicrously had to be put into secure disposal bags! I mean we don't want Al Q to find out how we planned from protect ourselves from air raids in the inter war period, do we?
I did manage to save a copy of 'Advising the Householder' and 'Protect and Survive' from the recycling bag.
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Username: Tony Evans
Nickname: Old Friend
Posts: 3967
Date: 1/15/07 22:22
Re: Sirens
Back in the mid 70s, they still tested the air raid sirens in Glendale, CA a couple of times a year. We all used to do the "duck and cover" drill, just like in propaganda film.
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Username: Jimlad1
Nickname: Old Friend
Posts: 1004
Date: 1/16/07 21:29
Re: Arc Light by Eric L Harry (and Nuclear War)
The codenames are still an ongoing saga - we're still coming across new ones at the moment. I'm doing a lot of private research into Site 3 (as it is now known) as it fascinates me intensely. The sites history is a walk through of UK civil defence planning in the Cold War in minature.
Try www.darkplaces.co.uk and look on the Military forums for a guy called LAC - he's got LOTS of stuff on this subject released over the past year and is a real expert on this subject. I've got an FOI going through at the moment on the origins of the bunker which has taken 6 months to process and should put a lot of new material into the public domain. I have dreams of writing the definitive site history one day...
Actually my job means I have no contact with this sort of material - simply because anything to do with Site 3 was run by Cabinet Office and I'm MOD. However, I visit the Cabinet Office regularly for meetings, so have ironically spoken to the staff as I 'need to know what it is I don't need to know to find out what I can know' if that makes sense
I agree the disposal of the ARP plans is a pain, but can you imagine the uproar when the tabloids inevitably got hold of the documents! There is a lot more being released now and the iminent demise of the paper registry means that many documents are being destroyed or stuck in the national archives.
Guns don't kill people. Bullets kill people.<i></i>
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