Post Attack Conditions

[MKSheppard]

---- Output from Another Nuclear War Q.htm ----

Back in December 2007, this was scrivened:

A variation on a theme of recent posts here, by myself and others.

The unthinkable has happened- boomers, bombers, and silo's have all authenticated their launch orders, there are dirty red missiles on course for our homelands. Everything has gone wrong. This wasn't meant to happen....

A few hours later, bombers are going to return to bases, or land at alternative bases?

Submarines are going to need resupply?

Crewers are going to leave silo's?

What do the military do?

RJim Fox,

Speaking from my experience in SAC, unless it was a completely bolt-from-the-blue attack, we would have watched the balloon go up from an alternate recovery base, which the bombers and tankers would have returned to...to be refueled, rearmed, and sent back out on the second strike. Believe me when I tell you that we understood that our families and friends were going to be gone. We would have only wanted to follow our orders at that point - and they would have been to keep launching until told to stop.

Mike

"F is for fire that burns down the town -
"U is for uranium - Bomb! -
"N is for no surviv-ORS! -
"Down in the deep blue sea!!
- Mr. Plankton

That works.

I'm reminded of an exchange from Lord of The Rings. Legolas and Gimli are standing on the parapet at Helm's Deep looking atvthe sea of campfires before them.

Legolas asks, "What will we do?"

Gimli answers, "We will fight as long as there is hope. Then we will fight without hope."

They fought without hope.

They won.

- Dennis

Mike K,

and they would have been to keep launching until told to stop.

Then what?

Then what?

We get ready to start shooting again.

Once the war is over we start to try and put everything back together again.

Nations do not survive by setting examples for others.
Nations survive by making examples of others

RJim,

Actually, Stuart isn't too far off.

I asked that question once and was told that if it came to that - where we had working aircraft and crews but no weapons - we'd try to find somebody who had weapons but no aircraft and bring the weapons back to Alpena.

Even if it had come down to no airplanes and no bombs, we were still a military unit. I imagine that if folks wanted to leave at that point, they probably would have been told, 'Go with God," and allowed to leave - but given the men I served under, I simply cannot imagine any of them ever taking it upon themselves to stand down the 379th BMW without proper authority.

Mike

"F is for fire that burns down the town -
"U is for uranium - Bomb! -
"N is for no surviv-ORS! -
"Down in the deep blue sea!!
- Mr. Plankton

I think Mike's given a pretty good description of what the bomber force would be doing after the balloon went up, and, unfortunately, I am not familiar with the Navy's post-laydown plans for its boomer fleet.

However, I do know a few things about what USAF Missileers would be doing after discharging their duty and turning keys. Those that survived the dozens of surface bursts going off in their general vicinity were trained to remain in their respective LCCs for as long as possible. As long as the air was somewhat breatheable and rations remained, they were to remain in their locations awaiting rescue and recovery. The reason for the wait is because much of the land around them just got turned into a glass-floored self-lighting parking lot, and the longer they could wait, or until properly equipped recovery forces were available, the less the threat of exposure to truly nasty radioactivity they would face. In general, the LCCs were supposed to provide for up to 6 months of life support for the launch crews. After the crews either exhausted their supplies, or simply couldn't stand the wait in the dark any longer, they were to dig out through their emergency escape tunnels, built into each LCC. If they were able to manage that, it was time to don NBC suits and make their way through the landscape to whatever help or civilization remained. This could involve a walk of dozens, possibly hundreds of miles, depending on post-attack conditions.

Not a very pretty picture.

I wish I had a gun just like the A-10, I'd be happy as a baby in a playpen I'd mow 'em down like a weedeater, with that thirty millimeter! I wish I had a gun just like the A-10.

Larry-

One intel officer I spoke to told me that (and Stuart may be able to add more to this) a lot of the Soviet counterforce missiles were actually set for low airbursts - the idea being that if we were as good as they thought we were, a good chunk of the Minutemen would be in the air (though not by much) as the first Soviet missiles arrived over the silo fields. The airbursts would take out whatever was in flight, and nothing else would be able to fly through them, therefore being pinned down in the silos as sitting ducks when the Soviet follow-up strikes arrived. With that in mind, the missile crews would almost certainly be able to survive, but they sure as hell wouldn't want to go outside afterwards.

Mike

"F is for fire that burns down the town -
"U is for uranium - Bomb! -
"N is for no surviv-ORS! -
"Down in the deep blue sea!!
- Mr. Plankton

One intel officer I spoke to told me that (and Stuart may be able to add more to this) a lot of the Soviet counterforce missiles were actually set for low airbursts - the idea being that if we were as good as they thought we were, a good chunk of the Minutemen would be in the air (though not by much) as the first Soviet missiles arrived over the silo fields. The airbursts would take out whatever was in flight, and nothing else would be able to fly through them, therefore being pinned down in the silos as sitting ducks when the Soviet follow-up strikes arrived. With that in mind, the missile crews would almost certainly be able to survive, but they sure as hell wouldn't want to go outside afterwards.

The Sov counter-force attack plan was indeed based upon a presumption that we could get the Minutemen airborne by the time the inbounds arrived. So, the first salvo would have been low airbursts intended to bring those missiles down and to pin the rest. The follow-ups would have been ground bursts to get the missiles still in the silos (and the silos themselves; the Russians believed there were reloads down there.)

The surface afterwards would have been a nightmare; contamination would have been frightful; the place would have looked like the surface of the moon. My gut feel is that the survival rates of the crews would have been minimal; assuming they survived the ground bursts intended to dig them out of the ground, they had pretty much nowhere to go.

It's counter-intuitive but a counter-force strike actually kills more people than a counter-city plan.

Nations do not survive by setting examples for others.
Nations survive by making examples of others

Quote:
the Russians believed there were reloads down there.

Stuart, you know that explains so much of the way the Soviets did things....they went for overkill because they thought WE had gone for it. Probably remembered that original USAF study that asked for 10K Minutemen and figured we'd gone ahead and done it.

Mike

"F is for fire that burns down the town -
"U is for uranium - Bomb! -
"N is for no surviv-ORS! -
"Down in the deep blue sea!!
- Mr. Plankton

It's counter-intuitive but a counter-force strike actually kills more people than a counter-city plan.

Forgive my ignorance but that's because cities are softer targets, and thus can be removed with lower yield air bursts which generate less fallout, and thus fewer long term deaths correct?

Forgive my ignorance but that's because cities are softer targets, and thus can be removed with lower yield air bursts which generate less fallout, and thus fewer long term deaths correct?

That's right; the best way to redevelop an inner-city area is a high airburst that does the amximum of damage to the target area but seriously limits the amount of fall-out. Counter-force strikes are ground bursts and thus incredibly dirty and cause plumes that are hundreds of miles long and can be very wide. It's not impossible that the destruction of the Minuteman fields would, if the winds were right, depopulate New York.

Nations do not survive by setting examples for others.
Nations survive by making examples of others

Stuart, you know that explains so much of the way the Soviets did things....they went for overkill because they thought WE had gone for it. Probably remembered that original USAF study that asked for 10K Minutemen and figured we'd gone ahead and done it.

Therew as a lot of mirror imaging in there as well. The Sovs built their silos so that they could be rapidly reloaded and they assumed we had done the same. Also, they knew what they could build with a given set of resources so they assumed they could extrapolate that to the level of resources we had. That gave them a problem; the predicted assets weren't there. So, they had to be where they couldn't see them

Nations do not survive by setting examples for others.
Nations survive by making examples of others

Even if it had come down to no airplanes and no bombs, we were still a military unit. I imagine that if folks wanted to leave at that point, they probably would have been told, 'Go with God," and allowed to leave - but given the men I served under, I simply cannot imagine any of them ever taking it upon themselves to stand down the 379th BMW without proper authority.

That would be an interesting post-apocalyptic setting. In the badlands of the future, one of the last outposts of order is the stalwart guardians of the 379th, waiting for their orders to stand down.

I think a lot of fragmentary units would be swept up into the Army. We would be trying to maintain order, trying to establish and maintain lines of communication, suppressing bandityr and the like. Like everyone else, we would be short handed and over extended. We would have the advantage that rifles and pointy sticks are relatively easy to maintain and supply, compared to missiles and aircraft.

- Dennis
--
Victory at all costs,
victory in spite of all terror, victory however long and hard the road may be;
for without victory there is no survival.
-Sir Winston Churchill