HMNZS Manawanui

[Drunknsubmrnr]

You’d want to know if special sea duty men were on at that point, and if not why not.

If they were on duty, something very wrong happened with their training. They’re supposed to be hand-picked for situations exactly like this. If they weren’t on duty, why not?

[Rocket J Squrriel]

This really gets into the design philosophy of the ship or airplane. What is the proper behavior if the craft if the controls are moved when the autopilot is on? If the assumption is that the autopilot or computer is more likely to be correct, then the control systems ignore the input and continue with what they were doing. If the assumption is that the pilot/helmsman is generally correct, then the craft follows the inputs given while the autopilot may or may not attempt to correct during or after the control input, all the while an alarm is indicating that the autopilot is on.

In my opinion, if the helmsman gives a right rudder and medium back control input, I damn well better see the rudder move right and the engine go to medium back. There should not be a hunt to turn the autopilot off first. I'd like to see a force feedback to the helmsman in the direction the autopilot wants to steer the boat, but the helmsman should be able to override without excessive force.

If the autopilot is on with a ship this size, there should be a projector putting letters at least 20cm tall across the top of the bridge windows "AUTOPILOT ON", especially if it disables the helm control. There should be a Big Red Button at each station where the ship can be controlled that disables the autopilot when pressed and triggers a notice. If the Navy wants to be sure it's not pressed accidentally, fit a molly guard to the button.

Anyone designing the layout of a helm station must be qualified to stand a helm watch. Anyone designing the overall bridge layout of a navy ship must be qualified to stand at least a JOOD watch.

There have been several fatal air crashes involving autopilots and controls. Like the Eastern crash into the Everglades where a nudge of the control column turned the altitude hold off. The Air France crash in the Atlantic and a Russian Airbus in Siberia where the pilots where fighting each other and the auto pilot. The planes should have a nice light right above the front windows saying if the auto pilot is engaged or not and who is working the stick. Maybe have a button on the captain's that would override the copilot's and sound an alarm when it happens.

[James1978]

Final Report on Loss of HMNZS Manawanui | Timeline of Grounding, Abandonment and Sinking

What's Going on With Shipping? - Sal Mercogliano
5 April 2025

[Nik_SpeakerToCats]

On one side, you have the 'Three Mile Island' effect, where so many 'secondary' alarms became active, the operators could not see the [REDACTED] woods for the trees...

Versus the 'WTF ??' issue with those self-driving cars, whose algorithms simply did not 'Fail Safe'...

Per that Driver_101 caution, 'If in doubt, slow down-- To buy yourself thinking time / mitigate mayhem.'

Instead, the hapless vehicles maintained course and speed while their pasta-bowl of algorithms stumbled through a maze of options until impact occurred...

The bridge 'work-load' factor suggests there should be a 'simple' master-display, as in light aircraft so, when the 'smarts' go 'tilt', you may assess the situation at a glance before grappling with the serried 'Wurlitzer' boards...

Does similar consideration apply to that misbehaving F-35 ??

I'm also reminded of that 'recent' ship near Baltic that lost power in storm because lube-oil pressure dropped.
The sea-state so tossed ship that tank contents were frothed.
"Dipped', sight-glass etc etc showed 'ample', but engine controls became giddy on the bubbles...

IIRC, they escaped lee-shore disaster by a few hundred metres.
Literally, close enough to hear the breakers...
IIRC, their lube-system has acquired a better 'stilling' device and sensor set...

[Straker]

A couple of things in the report really stood out to me:

1) How does a navy command or personnel management system allow the captain and executive officer of a vessel to be not qualified to command it, "platform qualified", for an extended amount of time after taking up post? The same could be said about the watch stander who didn't realise the autopilot state who was also not fully "platform qualified". It feels like ineffective command or management but also says something about the personnel themselves who from what was in the report didn't push to qualify or question why.

2) How does perception of risk get pushed down to the point that you are deliberately surveying of a reef without extra precautions like having the ships anchor party closed up in case of a loss of propulsion. Or just things like increasing the damage control state so that watertight doors were left closed (I acknowledge in the event that this wouldn't have actually helped.)

3) Do smaller navies like the RNZN who want to do higher capability taskings like surveying or even "warfighting" at a serious level actually have the critical mass of personnel required to maintain the diverse responsibilities. E.g. the person in charge of the survey was reading between the lines of the report incredibly under experienced for the position and not qualified. Survey work is something the RN is concerned about losing core skills in and they are working from a much larger base.

[kdahm]

There's actually a long relevant bit in an Essay section post by MKSheppard last week, from the old board.

viewtopic.php?t=3234 Stuart on Aussie/NZ Strategic Policies, SSKs, and Nigerian Bordellos...

Essentially,the NZ navy is very small, doesn't need to do much more than fisheries protection and customs enforcement, and is chronically funded differently from it's needs. That means a tiny officer pool.

[James1978]

For anyone who is curious and wants to read the report for themselves - LINK: Court of Inquiry Report

[Micael]

Court martials underway:

Ex-Royal Navy commander faces court martial over New Zealand ship sinking
Commander Yvonne Gray denies charges over the loss of a navy ship as the government hits out at misogyny surrounding the incident

Bernard Lagan, Sydney
Monday March 02 2026, 11.50am GMT, The Times

A former Royal Navy officer will face a court martial after the New Zealand ship she was commanding struck a reef and sank when the crew failed to turn off the autopilot.
Commander Yvonne Gray, a former Royal Navy warfare officer aboard frigates and minehunters, was in charge of the New Zealand navy’s 5,740-ton dive and hydrographic vessel, HMNZS Manawanui, when it hit a reef and sank near the southern coast of Upolu in Samoa in October 2024.
The sinking, due to the failure of those on the bridge to switch off the ship’s autopilot as it approached the reef, was the first time the New Zealand navy had lost a ship during peacetime.

Gray moved to New Zealand from the UK in 2012 with her wife, and joined New Zealand’s navy. She took command of the Manawanui in December 2022. It was her first command in a naval career that started in the United Kingdom in 1993.
Three senior New Zealand navy officers, including Gray, have been charged over the loss of HMNZS Manawanui. The charges of negligently causing or permitting a ship to be lost, have been laid under the Armed Forces Discipline Act, alleging that errors on the bridge on the evening of October 5, 2024, led to the vessel grounding on a known navigational hazard. Gray faces a maximum of two years imprisonment if found guilty.
Todd Simmonds, a barrister acting for the ship’s commander, said his client had “endured a lot of unjustified criticism” over the sinking of the Manawanui. He said Gray firmly denies the charges and welcomes the opportunity to respond to them at a court martial.
An interim navy report into the sinking released weeks after it occurred said the ship’s crew did not realise the autopilot was still engaged and failed to check if HMNZS Manawanui was under manual control as they struggled to steer it away from the reef. All 75 people on board evacuated safely as the ship foundered and caught fire. It was one of only nine vessels in New Zealand’s navy and was the first the country had lost at sea since the Second World War.

In the days after the incident, New Zealand’s defence minister, Judith Collins, criticised “armchair admirals” for suggesting that a female captain’s gender was to blame for the sinking of one of the nation’s ships. Collins said that women in military uniform had been abused in the street after the accident. “This is outrageous behaviour and New Zealand is not known for this and we are better than it,” she said.
On taking command of HMNZS Manawanui , Gray, originally from Harrogate, told a New Zealand defence publication: “When I’ve really enjoyed a job it’s because I’ve made a difference, where things are a little bit better than they were before.”

[Belushi TD]

I'd very much like to know more details about women in uniform being abused in the street. The way its stated makes it seems like ONLY women in uniform are being abused in the street, and that seems so totally out of character for New Zealand that my bullshit meter is hitting the stops.

A cursory google search has failed to provide any info. Is there anyone who's google fu is stronger than mine today that can help me out?

Belushi TD

[Calder]

I'd very much like to know more details about women in uniform being abused in the street. The way its stated makes it seems like ONLY women in uniform are being abused in the street, and that seems so totally out of character for New Zealand that my bullshit meter is hitting the stops.

A cursory google search has failed to provide any info. Is there anyone who's google fu is stronger than mine today that can help me out?

Belushi TD

Shrug, is it possible that a single misogynistic man talked some shit while walking past 2 female's in uniform. Sure.

However, I agree with you. I have lived in New Zealand. I have a hard time believing that women in uniform are facing constant abuse.

[Belushi TD]

I'd very much like to know more details about women in uniform being abused in the street. The way its stated makes it seems like ONLY women in uniform are being abused in the street, and that seems so totally out of character for New Zealand that my bullshit meter is hitting the stops.

A cursory google search has failed to provide any info. Is there anyone who's google fu is stronger than mine today that can help me out?

Belushi TD

Shrug, is it possible that a single misogynistic man talked some shit while walking past 2 female's in uniform. Sure.

However, I agree with you. I have lived in New Zealand. I have a hard time believing that women in uniform are facing constant abuse.

Not only that, I find it difficult to believe that the women in uniform would take that sort of abuse without, shall we say, expressing their disapproval in a manner designed to instruct the individual in question of the inappropriateness of their actions.

Belushi TD