1.) In the years since Fort Hood (5 NOV 2009), more details have become known about that incident:
The fatality rate was about 28.3%, compared to:
30% for .22LR
31.3% for .25 ACP
48% for .32 ACP
36.7% for .38 SPL
56.5% for 9mm
72.2% for 357 Magnum
66.7% for .44 Magnum
per the Boston Police Department's database for murders 2010-2014:
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6324289/
However, the 5.7 cartridge has an outsized capacity to cripple someone relative to it's caliber; as three people tried to charge Hasan inside the building -- two were mortally wounded and the third was crippled with a hip shot. Outside, a base police officer tried to stop Hasan; but she was incapicated by two hits, one on her thigh and one shattering her femur.
2.) Since then, the cartridge has seen a renaissance with several manufacturers making cheaper handguns:
Ruger 5.7
Smith and Wesson M&P 5.7
Kel-Tec PR57
As well as some carbines (Keltec SUB2000 Gen3 5.7 folding carbine).
Along with major ammunition manufacturers making the 5.7 loading, so we're not completely reliant on FN and their boutique pricing.
I guess in another five or six years, we'll have more definitive data on 5.7 lethality as more of them are used in "everyday" close contact situations.
=================================================
FN P90?
=================================================
Username: CJ07
Nickname: Old Friend
Posts: 211
Date: 8/11/03 21:15
FN P90?
Ive heard a lot of mixed opinions on this weapon over time and the merits or disadvantages of the rather unique design. Im wondering what are the opinions of it here and exactly how reliable it is when staked up against other SMGs. Would the P90 make it as a weapon for US armor crews or/or for support troops or would they better off with the M4/M16?
"Here is the price of freedom: Your every drop of courage, ounce of pain, pint of blood. Paid in advance." -Bunker Hill
=================================================
Username: Phong Nguyen
Nickname: Old Friend
Posts: 88
Date: 8/12/03 0:24
Re: FN P90?
I've heard that it's quite unreliable, but nothing really more than that.
=================================================
Username: fltcpt
Nickname: Capitalist
Posts: 2066
Date: 8/12/03 3:25
Re: FN P90?
The P90 as you stated is primary a sub machinegun and as such a short ranged weapon. While it has a lot of technical innovations and looks quite futurist and impressive it does have quite a few failings.
1) Specialized ammuntion and magazines. Outside of special ops use it greatly hampers the logistic system. The M16 family all uses the same magazines, vital parts and ammunition. It would represent a logistical headache for issuing a specialized and limited avaliability weapon and ammuntion for a few troops.
2) Range, while the new round is impressive for SMG it is not as effective at range as the 5.56 round.
3) Training it will require additional and seperate training for those that are issued it in combat
The P90 comparison would be more in line with other SMGs such as the MP5 series than the M4. The P90 is a weapon that has special ops applications however for front line combat use its range and specialized logistic requirements hampers it.
As far as reliability there have been mixed reviews. For now the MP5 will remain the SMG of choice, until the P90 is proven.
=================================================
Username: M21A1 Sniper
Nickname: Old Friend
Posts: 514
Date: 8/12/03 4:08
Re: FN P90?
The FN P90 is not a submachinegun, it doesn't normal fire pistol ammunition.
What it is, is a low power(yet deep penetrating) carbine.
Never shot one, but they do look neat-o, lol.
"US Snipers-Providing surgical strikes since 1776"
=================================================
Username: fltcpt
Nickname: Capitalist
Posts: 2069
Date: 8/12/03 4:24
Re: FN P90?
The P90 is classified by FN as a submachinegun.
http://www.fnhusa.com/contents/tw_p90.htm
Even though it does fire specialized ammuntion the 5.7 x 28. Though it is relatively short range at having an effective range of 200meters. And yes it is very effective at penetration. It is very futurist looking. Time will tell on how well it will be accepted.
=================================================
Username: M21A1 Sniper
Nickname: Old Friend
Posts: 516
Date: 8/12/03 7:24
Re: FN P90?
They may classify it as a SMG FltCpt, but you and i both know that submachineguns fire pistol cartridges.
It has the exact same design purpose of the M-1/2 carbines, and pretty much all carbines for that matter. Compact firepower for rear echelon troops and vehicle crewmen.
200 meters would be very long range for a SMG. 200 meters is bout the same effective range as the M-1 carbine aint it?What a coincidence.
They can call it an SMG i guess, but by type it is a carbine.
Anyway, i'd rather have an M-4....but the P90 is about as neat looking a weapon as i've ever seen. One could do worse than getting issued one of those.
"US Snipers-Providing surgical strikes since 1776"
=================================================
Username: Sea Skimmer
Nickname: Interstellar Warlord
Posts: 842
Date: 8/12/03 11:02
Re: FN P90?
Time will tell on how well it will be accepted.
As I recall Supatra stated that Thai MP units had been equipped with the P90 but have/are discarding them in favor of more conventional 5.56mm G36K carbines after only a few years.
"As your attorney, I advise you to not listen to reason" Non Sequitur
=================================================
Username: Seer Stuart
Nickname: The Prince of Darkness
Posts: 1570
Date: 8/12/03 13:51
Re: FN P90?
Supatra stated that Thai MP units had been equipped with the P90 but have/are discarding them in favor of more conventional 5.56mm G36K carbines after only a few years.
Suphi said that one of the MP battalions had P90s for a year as a trial but the troops hated them and they were turned in at the end of the trial in favor of M4s. IIRC the troops didn't trust feeds that turned a round through 90 degrees, the weapon didn't have a bayonet and its design made it unusable as a club. Suphi will be back at the end of the month if you need a more detailed account.
The great issues of the day are not solved by speeches and resolutions in the United Nations. They are solved by the tanks of the US Armed Forces.
=================================================
Username: Urgit
Nickname: Linuxphile
Posts: 528
Date: 8/12/03 14:24
Re: FN P90?
I thought the P90 had been designed as a replacement for the hand gun for rear echelon troops, something to give them more power than a pistol but not something that would get in the way as a rifle or carbine might do?
Much same as to what M21Sniper said..
=================================================
Username: weirdo
Nickname: John Smith
Posts: 664
Date: 8/12/03 15:07
From the picture we're linked to by fltcpt...
...the weapon is way to big to be considered as a pistol replacement. It looks like the buttstock collapses, but its movement is limited by the grip's proximity and the ejection port. I wonder if the buttstock is fully collapsed in the picture...looks like it must be. If the recoil spring is in the rear as opposed to the forearm area, the size of the buttstock is irrelevent: A folder--which I perfer--wouldn't help if the recoil spring is in the rear.
From the picture, it appears that a weapon is still either a pistol or a rifle. I've yet to see one that fills both slots well, but of course I haven't seen them all.
One thing does stand out though, if I'm seeing what I think I'm seeing. Is that a cartridge-type (that's what I'm calling it,) flush-fitting magazine attached to the top of the receiver...that holds fifty rounds? That is neat. Picture the typical SMG with a 50-rd stick.
I can't see any regular army wanting any SMG, or anything with that short of a barrel, no matter how neat.
=================================================
Username: M21A1 Sniper
Nickname: Old Friend
Posts: 518
Date: 8/13/03 7:46
Re: From the picture we're linked to by fltcpt...
They got that concept of the HK G11. Now that was a neat weapon. That was the caseless rifle.
"US Snipers-Providing surgical strikes since 1776"
=================================================
Username: Sea Skimmer
Nickname: Interstellar Warlord
Posts: 844
Date: 8/14/03 4:07
Re: From the picture we're linked to by fltcpt...
The magazine holds 50 rounds, but it's also poorly designed, if it's dropped when not completely full they rounds basically spray out all over the place.
"As your attorney, I advise you to not listen to reason" Non Sequitur
=================================================
Username: M21A1 Sniper
Nickname: Old Friend
Posts: 522
Date: 8/14/03 5:50
Re: From the picture we're linked to by fltcpt...
That could be a problem....
LOL
"US Snipers-Providing surgical strikes since 1776"
=================================================
Username: PugGeorge
Nickname: Regular
Posts: 35
Date: 10/20/03 17:50
Re: FN P90?
Didn't trust?
Does this mean it actually ever failed or they couldn't get their minds wrapped around a new weapon design?
Of course the other two are completely acceptable reasons if you expect to enter hand to hand combat using the PDW on a regular basis.
BTW, since the P90 uses the same round as the FN 5-7 woudnt the adoption of this pistol along with the P90 alleviate some of the suply problems? Right now the M-16 does not use the same ammo as a soldiers side-arm so two types of ammo have to be accounted for anyway.
=================================================
Username: PugGeorge
Nickname: Regular
Posts: 36
Date: 10/20/03 17:52
Re: From the picture we're linked to by fltcpt...
Very wrong.
Having spoken to people who have used the weapon they say this idea is a very poor myth. They tried to get the clip to pop out full, half empty, almost completely empty and it still never actually happened.
BTW, if the P90 is such a poor concept then why was the H&K MP7 created as a direct competitor with specialized round and everything.
http://www.hkpro.com/pdw.htm
=================================================
Username: Sea Skimmer
Nickname: Interstellar Warlord
Posts: 923
Date: 10/20/03 20:39
Re: From the picture we're linked to by fltcpt...
BTW, if the P90 is such a poor concept then why was the H&K MP7 created as a direct competitor with specialized round and everything.
To make more money for the company by creating a new and unnecessary class of weapons and then convincing people to buy them. It's not exactly the first time that's happened. The lack of buys for the MP-7 is a good indication of just how much the capability is sought.
"As your attorney, I advise you to not listen to reason" Non Sequitur
=================================================
Username: PugGeorge
Nickname: Regular
Posts: 41
Date: 10/20/03 21:38
Re: From the picture we're linked to by fltcpt...
Actually the problem with the HP7 would most likely be the smaller round than the P-90 carries compared with a very minor increase in muzzle velocity. So the rounds are going to do less damage.
That and unlike the P90 the round for the MP7 is not interchangable with any other weapons.
Finally the MP7 is not a bullpup so it has a shorter barrel and is less accurate at range.
=================================================
Username: Urgit
Nickname: Linuxphile
Posts: 584
Date: 10/21/03 14:02
Re: From the picture we're linked to by fltcpt...
How widely used is the FN FiveSeven ? Not very from what little I understand.
Most combat side arms at the moment are 9mm and many people seem to think return to .45 cal is preferable rather than dropping the cal down.
=================================================
Username: PugGeorge
Nickname: Regular
Posts: 45
Date: 10/21/03 15:21
Re: From the picture we're linked to by fltcpt...
Don't know. That would be a question for someone here that is in the military.
Does anyone know of any good comparisons of the FN 5-7 and some of the better known .45 cal pistols? How many of the .45's can you give you 20 rounds and only weigh 1.7 lbs? The standard .45 is a little over 3 lbs with 7 shots and the new SOCOM is closer to 4 lbs with only 12.
=================================================
Username: Supatra
Nickname: Infantry - Let us Prey
Posts: 1628
Date: 10/21/03 15:48
Re: FN P90?
OK. For background was my people who have P90 issued to them for one year as trial. Because of this had a FiveSeveN for my use for this time. Carried for while instead of my Desert Eagle. At end of trial we hand back P90s and have M4A1 carbine issued instead. This is what we have now.
Reason for issue of P90 was that it has good armor piercing capability in urban combat ranges. So is useful against those wearing bullet proof vests more than submachine gun firing conventional pistol round. Also was belief that round would not overpenetrate would go through body armor but then stay in target.
Why we reject this?
First most important was that troops hate it. They did not like it did not trust it. Part of reason was magazine. Was impossible to tell them that they could trust feed that turn round through 90 degrees. Was not reasonable mistrust but was there no matter how hard we try could not make confident. Also they just did not like way weapon carried or way felt when carried. Did not like how was held or position was in when held. Also could not use as club or fix with bayonet for prodding. Magazine problem is not myth. So sorry but know this from own. You drop half loaded magazine are rounds all over the place.
In end we give up on it. We see that troops start to dump it carry AKs instead. Would turn up on parade with P90 but if go out on job suddenly it morph into AK. In ours we believe that is more important for troops to have weapon they are confident with than one with some small advantage of technical. So we abandon P90 go to M4A1. This mean lose my FiveSeveN Ordnance never like it anyway for it does not have external hammer. Had to get special permission to carry it this was withdrawn when we lose P90s.
Now troops have M4A1 they are happy.
Build a man a fire you warm him for a night
Set a man on fire you warm him for all his life
=================================================
Username: PugGeorge
Nickname: Regular
Posts: 46
Date: 10/21/03 16:32
Re: FN P90?
Were you issued an early version of the P90?
I was speaking (online) with a member of a US SWAT team from out west ( want to say it was Utah area) who says their department had purchased P90's and he along with several other members of the SWAT tried to do just what you said would happen.
They dropped them fully loaded, half loaded, almost empty. Every time the clip stayed in place and the weapon could be fired. Maybe the clip issue was an early issue that was corrected in some manner.
Also what kind of kevlar are soldiers who get it get issued? The guy I was talking to mentioned that the round would penetrate 16 stacked class 2 vests.
The soldier thing is to be expected. No one seems to like new toys LESS than a soldier.
=================================================
Username: Supatra
Nickname: Infantry - Let us Prey
Posts: 1630
Date: 10/21/03 18:55
Re: FN P90?
They dropped them fully loaded, half loaded, almost empty. Every time the clip stayed in place and the weapon could be fired. Maybe the clip issue was an early issue that was corrected in some manner.
Please excuse magazine not clip. Clip is something different. SKS and M1 Garand load from clip. M16 and P90 load from magazine.
Think can see. when speak of dropping magazine mean one not attached to weapon. In ours if soldier drop loaded weapon injury from negligent discharge will be as nothing to one from boot of Sergeant.
Also what kind of kevlar are soldiers who get it get issued?
We have standard American PASGT Grade IIIA made locally. Mine is fitted but men have mostly from stock. Alos we have overvest. This have ceramic plates for extra protection. Americans are giving us new ones soon.
The soldier thing is to be expected. No one seems to like new toys LESS than a soldier.
In yours? Please to imagine eyebrows raising greatly. In ours we have thing British military attache call shiny toys syndrome. Something new arrive everybody want one. That is why strong reaction against P90 surprise us so much.
Build a man a fire you warm him for a night
Set a man on fire you warm him for all his life
=================================================
Username: PugGeorge
Nickname: Regular
Posts: 47
Date: 10/21/03 19:07
Re: FN P90?
Oh ok, that is where the confusion was. I think the magazine item was exxagerated from dropping a magazine by itself and it going everywhere into the rumor many people have heard that if you drop a half loaded weapon the magazine will pop out.
The new toy comment just came from talking to different people over the years. Maybe I got the wrong impression. Good soldiers will tell you (at least they have told me) that the most important aspect of a piece of gear is reliability. Shiny new toy and reliability are not two things that generally go hand in hand.
What did you think of the FiveSeven when you carried it? I have never held one (the ammo's AP ability makes it illegal to own in USA) but have been told the grip is alittle longer than most because of the length of the round and that it has very little recoil.
The troops that were issed the P90 what kind of duty were they to use it? The weapon was not intended to be a frontline battlefield weapon like the AK or even the M4 as the US Army considered. Its more of a reserve weapon for people who will have to carry one but will odds are never use it and for close quarter action which would explain why SWAT teams in the USA with too much money have picked it up.
I would not expect the P90 to compare well to a larger weapon like the AK or M4 in any catagory except ease of carry. Have you ever fired the MP5 and if so how do you think it compared to the P90?
=================================================
Username: Sea Skimmer
Nickname: Interstellar Warlord
Posts: 926
Date: 10/22/03 4:10
Re: From the picture we're linked to by fltcpt...
And how many of those 20 high penetration 5.7mm rounds are you going to need to stop man? Probably a whole lot.
"As your attorney, I advise you to not listen to reason" Non Sequitur
=================================================
Username: joe frye
Nickname: Felon Wrangler
Posts: 194
Date: 10/22/03 4:26
Re: From the picture we're linked to by fltcpt...
Indeed, have you noticed a logic chain in all of this? The 5.56 is supposed to have the stopping power of a .30 caliber. Now the 5.7 has the stopping power of a 5.56. Pretty soon, a .22 rimfire will have the stopping power or a .50.
Ridiculous.
"Stanger, go tell the Lacedaemonians that we lie here, obedient to their commands": The Spartan 300[/i]
=================================================
Username: PugGeorge
Nickname: Regular
Posts: 49
Date: 10/22/03 13:45
Re: From the picture we're linked to by fltcpt...
"Probably"
So in other words you have no idea what you are talking about.
=================================================
Username: Supatra
Nickname: Infantry - Let us Prey
Posts: 1631
Date: 10/22/03 14:26
Re: FN P90?
Hey what happen here lost all of this when did small edit.......
Build a man a fire you warm him for a night
Set a man on fire you warm him for all his life
Edited by: Supatra at: 10/22/03 14:54
=================================================
Username: PugGeorge
Nickname: Old Friend
Posts: 52
Date: 10/22/03 14:51
Re: FN P90?
Thanks for the information. I have always felt the MP5 was highly overrated and far too Hollywood.
Where would you rate the FN 5-7 in stopping power campared to your SIG and the DE? I know the DE would be at the top but which one would you rate second and which one third?
=================================================
Username: Supatra
Nickname: Infantry - Let us Prey
Posts: 1633
Date: 10/22/03 15:03
Re: FN P90?
Where would you rate the FN 5-7 in stopping power campared to your SIG and the DE? I know the DE would be at the top but which one would you rate second and which one third?
Cannot tell you for have never shot anybody with 9 millimeter or FiveSeveN. Whatever book says is only one way to test these things that is to do for real. On paper muzzle energy of 5.7 x 28 is 540 joules. This compares with 583 joules for Milspec pistol 9 x 19 and 788 joules for SMG 9 x 19 and 2,038 joules for Milspec .44 magnum all these are FMJ. But 5.7 x 28 is armor piercing round so is hard to say. Know this 5.7 x 28 and .44 magnum will both penetrate armor vest 9 x 19 mostly will not. On other hand .44 magnum is hard to shoot need much practice and strong hands.
Build a man a fire you warm him for a night
Set a man on fire you warm him for all his life
=================================================
Username: PugGeorge
Nickname: Old Friend
Posts: 56
Date: 10/22/03 15:17
Re: FN P90?
I guess one should also consider that the 5-7 is designed as a battlefield sidearm of the future. The intent is for it to go onto a battlefield where seeing someone without bodyarmor will be the expection not the rule.
So in that regard the 5-7 should be leaps and bounds above an 9mm as a sidearm of choice. It would not though be the obvious choice in an environment where your majority of targets do not wear some sort of armor.
=================================================
Username: Supatra
Nickname: Infantry - Let us Prey
Posts: 1636
Date: 10/22/03 15:30
Re: FN P90?
I guess one should also consider that the 5-7 is designed as a battlefield sidearm of the future. The intent is for it to go onto a battlefield where seeing someone without bodyarmor will be the expection not the rule.
But only those with death wish carry sidearms on battlefield. For field work always carried M16A1 or A2 same as men. Now carry M4A1 same as men. Reason is enemy sniper has two priority targets. Officers and radiomen. To carry sidearm is marking self as officer. Is for same reason my BDUs have no badge of rank on them. And wear loose BDU.
Sidearms for most officers are badge of rank not weapon. This is why 9 x 19 is good round for these. Most of casualties from sidearms of officers are owner hit himself in foot when pretending to be John Wayne. Pistols are good for small specific things and for those who may require instant firepower. Even then are usually better options. I get my DE because was serving in area where could be attacked at any time without warning. Then we have M1911A1 as standard sidearm and this not have stopping power needed. So after friend of mine was killed got the DE.
Build a man a fire you warm him for a night
Set a man on fire you warm him for all his life
=================================================
Username: M21A1 Sniper
Nickname: Old Friend
Posts: 533
Date: 10/23/03 3:24
Re: FN P90?
"Also what kind of kevlar are soldiers who get it get issued? The guy I was talking to mentioned that the round would penetrate 16 stacked class 2 vests."
I don't want to call anyone a liar....but....that claim seems pretty um, ridiculous. That's 32 separate panels of (admittedly pretty weak) Class II kevlar.
I've seen it claimed the P-90 round can pierce a Class IIIA(proof vs 240gr JSP .44 Mag), but not a Class IV insert, which would give a fraction of the protection that 32 panels of class II would(even if they were mounted in a fashion to prevent them from flexing with the hit).
A class IV insert will stop a .30-06AP round(they say).
As far of the terminal ballistics of the new round, i wouldn't expect too much. It has a nice high velocity(that will give a nice TWC), but being FMJ configuration it will zip right through without expansion(meaning a miniscule PCC), taking the majority of it's KE with it, instead of depositing it in the target where it belongs.
"US Snipers-Providing surgical strikes since 1776"
=================================================
Username: LordArpad
Nickname: New Guy
Posts: 1
Date: 11/10/03 22:26
Re: FN P90?
AFAIK the bullet is meant not to leave the body - I remember seeing a shot into jelly somewhere. anyhow through tumbling it supposedly looses all energy in the body.
I still think the P90 would make a cool gun for tank crews, gunners, pilots, lorry drivers, HQ personnell etc. Generally speaking everybody who'se job description doesn't say "Rifleman".
Navy too. Deutsche MArine is boarding ships with G36K - why? anybody going to claim that a full rifle round is needed on a ship?
Bernhard
=================================================