Indian Air Force

[Wolfman]

This thread is for discussion about the Indian Air Force and what they may or may not be flying…

[Sukhoiman]

Rafales, Hornets and F-35 is what I gathered thus far?

[Wolfman]

Super Hornets and derivatives were certainly a suggestion, as were the Rafale, F-24A and Mirage 2000. Even if they don’t fly the regular Super Hornet, the recon version and the Growler make sense.

By the way, ITTL, the IRL F-35 is the F-24.

[Sukhoiman]

To me, the Mirage 2000 would make the most sense as IRL, it was actually considered (at least 2 or 3 times) quite seriously to become the dominant platform for the IAF going forward including what it would take to produce as much of it within India. It is part of the reason the Tejas (IRL) bears a lot of similarity to it too.

So if there was a massive geopolitical wind change (in the 80s) where India essentially becomes more pro-West (vis a vis IRL where this was only hedged with larger Soviet dominance in the ecosystem) to maintain maximum degree of independence away from WW3 and grow defence capability at same time, the French would likely fit the bill best.

Then the rest would involve how the actual conflict and post-conflict situation evolves in the 90s and beyond as to how American technology might be introduced over time to complement or displace the Indo-French partnership.

I just find it very unlikely that India would switch to the US right away for significant military technology and assets in the 80s....airforce or otherwise.

[Wolfman]

We’ve already got the Indian Navy flying this timeline’s F-35B from a carrier designed by Great Britain, so the Air Force version isn’t a huge stretch with that being the case, and I specified the recon version of the Super Hornet and the Growler (EW Super Hornet variant) as making sense even if India isn’t using the F/A-18E/F…

[Sukhoiman]

Interesting. I'll just have to read everything and get up to scratch on it then.

By economy of scale, if the IN is using F-35 (F-24) , then it would make most sense to have the AF have them too.

Growlers as support role to maximising the F-35 also makes sense.

Is this just a one-off CBG the IN has at this point?

It opens up so many questions as to how all the various economies grew and developed too in a very different world (in the 20+ years since red dawn AU) compared to our reality....or do we assume overall the same there?

[Wolfman]

For the carriers, talk to Bernard Woolley.

[James1978]

Background question(s):
- What is the history with US-Pakistan relations in RDverse? As long as Pakistan is seen as a US client and a threat, that is going to push back India buying US weapons.
- How does the US and the wider world view nuclear proliferation in RDverse? Because in @, the US screwed with Sea Harrier spares after the @ 1998 nuclear tests.
- To what degree were Post-WW3 Soviet/Russian arms exports restricted? Could they still sell weapons?
- When in RDverse would the Soviets stop deliveries of weapons to countries not involved in the war? Ditto for spares.

A little @ background for context.

Il-38 MPA: Operated 5 aircraft from 1977. How long are they sustainable in this world?

Tu-142MK-E: Operated 8 aircraft from @ 1988. Obviously, not happening in RDverse.

Il-76MD: 17 ordered @ 1983-1988. Delivery from @ 1985.

Mirage 2000: Initial order in @ 1982.

Jaguar: In service from 1979. License production/assembly aircraft in service from @ 1985.

MiG-21: License production until @ 1988.

MiG-23: 46 MiG-23MF bought in early 1980s.
95 MiG-23BN bought in early 1980s.

MiG-25: Eight recon and two trainers from 1981.

MiG-27M: License production of 165 aircraft from @ 1986-96. Production agreement signed @ 1984 or 1985. Delivery of first knock-down kit @ 1985.

MiG-29: Ordered @ 1986, delivery from @ 1987. I think it's safe to say that didn't happen in RDverse.


Mu guess is that the French take over Jaguar support from BAC during the war years. Though how the war effects the delivery of the bits India has to buy from the UK/France is anyone's guess. India probably just orders more Jaguars with the MiG-27 off the table.
With the MiG-29 presumably off the table, I'd guess the French slide in with more Mirage 2000s while the rest of the world is occupied, with India likely getting a production license.
Both of those get the French pretty entrenched with HAL for future fighter contracts.
The MiG-23 and MiG-25 acquisitions are close enough to WW3 kicking off, that it's an open question how much domestic support is set up yet.
For the Il-38/Tu-142, the timing works for the French to slide in with Atlantique 2. Further down the road, maybe Nimrod MR.4.

[Kendog52361]

- How does the US and the wider world view nuclear proliferation in RDverse? Because in @, the US screwed with Sea Harrier spares after the @ 1998 nuclear tests.

I don't know about nuclear tests, but overall, the US and UK pretty much have a "no tolerance" standard regarding WMDs, in general. If you use one, regardless of make or model, (bio, chem, or nuclear), you are going to eat at least one nuke from us. When the Libyans used chemical weapons against their rebels, we nuked them, the Libyans, although I can't remember if it was Tripoli, a military base, or some combination thereof.

[Wolfman]

The camel lover (Gadaffi) also shot nukes at Britain and slimed Gibraltar…

[Belushi TD]

Regarding production and use of USSR airframes, I'd think that India would actually be able to get all the various planes contracted for at LEAST through 1986 or 1987, if for no other reason than for the USSR to flex about how they were fighting a war against Capitalist America, and yet they still have the ability to fulfill all their orders from the "peace loving people of the world".

Even if they are stabbing their own forces in the knee by doing so. There's a WHOLE LOT that the Russians put into the public image, even if EVERYONE knows they're full of shit. They still do it, as the bull that comes out of the Kremlin in regards to the Ukraine war can demonstrate. And remember, the Russians KNEW they were going to war and were pumping out equipment as fast as they could in the 1983 - 1985 timeframe. (At least I think they were. Didn't we assume that their production would be significantly higher in RD-verse?)

Here's my opinions about the various purchases. Remember, I am not a developer/contributor to the RD-verse, so take what I say with a grain (or ocean) of salt.

Il-38 MPA: Operated 5 aircraft from 1977. How long are they sustainable in this world? Since India is not stupid, I would assume that they would order several years worth of spares and so forth as soon as the war starts (or earlier), to ensure that they can operate as long as the airframes will hold out.

Tu-142MK-E: Operated 8 aircraft from @ 1988. Obviously, not happening in RDverse. Agreed.

Il-76MD: 17 ordered @ 1983-1988. Delivery from @ 1985. I would think that India would get the @ delivered aircraft at least through the end of 1986. I am not familiar with the dates of delivery, but I bet you are. There may be some wiggle room through the end of 1987.

Mirage 2000: Initial order in @ 1982. - With France not getting involved with the war, I would think this order would certainly go through, and may be enlarged.

Jaguar: In service from 1979. License production/assembly aircraft in service from @ 1985. I would think that India would continue with the production as long as they were producing the parts themselves. Once the war starts, I don't think they're going to get any more assembly kits. However, the British are not stupid either, and were probably upping production prior to the start of the war. The Jaguar was a British plane, right? If you're producing the plane yourself, you might get the UK buying Jaguars from you akin to the US buying F-4's from the Japanese production line.

MiG-21: License production until @ 1988. Can't see any reason this would stop, aside from the MiG-21 being outdated by 1988. However, if you're building all the parts yourself, you might end up getting the USSR to buy planes from YOU, instead.

MiG-23: 46 MiG-23MF bought in early 1980s. Early enough in the timeline that this entire purchase should go through.
95 MiG-23BN bought in early 1980s. Early enough in the timeline that this entire purchase should go through.

MiG-25: Eight recon and two trainers from 1981. Early enough in the timeline that this entire purchase should go through.

MiG-27M: License production of 165 aircraft from @ 1986-96. Production agreement signed @ 1984 or 1985. Delivery of first knock-down kit @ 1985. Again, if you're producing the parts yourself, I can't see any reason India would STOP building them. If you're assembling kits, same comment as for the IL-76.

MiG-29: Ordered @ 1986, delivery from @ 1987. I think it's safe to say that didn't happen in RDverse. Agreed. I don't think India is likely to end up with MiG-29s, because the dates don't work out right. Unless we assume that you took a look at what was going on in the US in 1985, and moved up the order to the end of '85, with delivery starting in mid-86. Not sure the Russians would go for that, though.

Again, remember that I am not a contributor and am not privy to the inner workings of the RD universe.

Belushi TD

[Poohbah]

My take is that India looked at how things were going, did some careful mathematical analysis for things like relative loss rates, etc., and they came to the same conclusion that 13th Army's intelligence staff did shortly before 49 Easting: that unless the Americans collapsed in the summer/fall of 1986 (which they were showing no sign of doing), the USSR was going to lose the war.

The 1986 graduating class of US high school seniors more than made up for losses sustained in 1985 and 1986, while the Soviet Union's demographics were imploding--too many Great Russians were dying on the American Plains, and arming their captive peoples was looking more and more dangerous.

[Matt Wiser]

The Indians were realists, plain and simple. They knew who would win and who would lose, and their generals advised the political leaders that they have better get ready for a world without the USSR at some point.

[Bernard Woolley]

For the carriers, talk to Bernard Woolley.

Let me dig out the carriers file.

[Wolfman]

For the carriers, talk to Bernard Woolley.

Let me did out the carriers file.

That’ll work. Thanks, Bernard.

[Bernard Woolley]

If I can find it! I may have to recreate it. The Indian Navy did get a Furious class and will have two indigenous carriers in the near future, based on the QE design, IIRC.

[Poohbah]

If I can find it! I may have to recreate it. The Indian Navy did get a Furious class and will have two indigenous carriers in the near future, based on the QE design, IIRC.

I assume that the Furious class is fast?

[Wolfman]

Bad Poohbah! No treats for you! And another five spot in the fine jar for the bad pun.

[jemhouston]

Bad Poohbah! No treats for you! And another five spot in the fine jar for the bad pun.

That's the Fate of the Furious.

[Wolfman]

I think that ITTL, India might just have bought Rafale-B (two-seat conversion trainer) and Rafale-C (land-based strike fighter).

Am I making sense here?