General Discussion Thread

[Wolfman]

That has to hurt for the facility.

They deserved it.

[Eaglenine2]

Question what Divisions and brigades were stood up during the War?

[Wolfman]

Fifth and Sixth Marine Divisions, CVW-10, CVW-16, CVW-19, CVW-21, and a large number of Army units…

[Matt Wiser]

R/V Petrel has been out again: they have found quite a few WW II wrecks, but they've found their first WW III wreck: Minsk, the second of the Kiev-class CVHGs. Found west of Vancouver Island well off the Continental Shelf in 8K feet of water. She was sunk trying to provide cover during the Battle of Puget Sound in 1986 by carrier aircraft (CVW-15 from Carl Vinson and CVW-2 from Ranger).

[Poohbah]

R/V Petrel has been out again: they have found quite a few WW II wrecks, but they've found their first WW III wreck: Minsk, the second of the Kiev-class CVHGs. Found west of Vancouver Island well off the Continental Shelf in 8K feet of water. She was sunk trying to provide cover during the Battle of Puget Sound in 1986 by carrier aircraft (CVW-15 from Carl Vinson and CVW-2 from Ranger).

Wonder if we've recovered the nukes...

[Matt Wiser]

Not sure: the bow is missing all the way back to the Flight Deck and Island. That's where the SS-N-12 missiles, the forward SA-N-3 launcher, one of the SA-N-4 launchers, and the FRAS-1 ASW rocket (a FROG with a NDB) were. There was a large explosion forward as she went under, which was likely the relevant magazines. While the Forger could carry two RN-24 or RN-28 nuclear bombs, and the Ka-25 Hormone-A could carry an NDB, those would have been in secure magazines deep inside the ship. And I doubt there's an ROV that can get in that far and crack the magazine with the nukes.

[jemhouston]

The 300 had better odds than the Minsk.

[Wolfman]

Considering that her only fighter cover was the POS code named FORGER, I don’t think she ever had a chance against two full CVWs…

[jemhouston]

I'm not sure of what the carriers had, but I'm wondering if A-7s with late model Sidewinders could take out the Forgers.

[Poohbah]

Puget Sound was a death ride for the Soviet Pacific Fleet. About the only part that was viable after Puget was the Eastern Pacific Squadron in Mexico, and they knew that any attempt to break out of Mexican waters and go home would end with them getting hunted down.

[jemhouston]

Puget Sound was a death ride for the Soviet Pacific Fleet. About the only part that was viable after Puget was the Eastern Pacific Squadron in Mexico, and they knew that any attempt to break out of Mexican waters and go home would end with them getting hunted down.

They were in the same position on the Tirpitz in Norway. They only existed until the US decided to kill them.

[Poohbah]

And I just got thrown two curveballs thrown at me today--on Day One of OLYMPIC RUMBLE, 20th Air Force's new mobile missile force-on-force exercise, no less!

First curve ball: my boss, Maj Gen Michelle Taldren, was supposed to move to Washington early next year to become the Assistant Deputy Chief of Staff for Logistics at HQ USAF.

She's moving four months early, and she's going to be on the Joint Staff as the Director for Manpower and Personnel. Said shift in duty assignment was caused by the prospective candidate putting in for medical retirement.

Second curve ball: I'm first pick as her replacement.

[Matryoshka]

I'm not sure of what the carriers had, but I'm wondering if A-7s with late model Sidewinders could take out the Forgers.

As naval battles go, I’ve heard Puget Sound compared to First Guadalcanal for sheer ‘WTF just happened? Who did what, to who, when, where, and how?’ on both sides. If memory serves, apart from sinking an NK Najin-class frigate that must have been very, very ‘geographically embarrassed’ just to be there in the first place, the Kiwi Skyhawks operating out of NAS Whidbey Island claimed multiple helicopter and at least two Forger kills during that schemozzle, both with AIM-9Ls and with guns(!). I couldn’t tell you if any of them were ever confirmed or officially credited, because see above re: absolute dog’s breakfast, but the RNZAF was right there getting stuck-in.

Poohbah: should I send you a congratulatory fruit-basket, or a bouquet of lilies?

[Matt Wiser]

I'm not sure of what the carriers had, but I'm wondering if A-7s with late model Sidewinders could take out the Forgers.

Both had A-7s. Connie with CVW-14 came up with VFA-25 and VFA-113 with F/A-18As later in the day.

The second Kiev-class in SOVPACFLT, Novorossiysk, survived, but her air wing was gutted. She was later sunk at Second Kamchatka.

Puget Sound was a bar brawl, no question. But, it made sure that the Soviet Pacific Fleet's heavy ships took a beating, and that they never attempted another amphibious landing during the war after that.

[Poohbah]

I'm not sure of what the carriers had, but I'm wondering if A-7s with late model Sidewinders could take out the Forgers.

As naval battles go, I’ve heard Puget Sound compared to First Guadalcanal for sheer ‘WTF just happened? Who did what, to who, when, where, and how?’ on both sides. If memory serves, apart from sinking an NK Najin-class frigate that must have been very, very ‘geographically embarrassed’ just to be there in the first place, the Kiwi Skyhawks operating out of NAS Whidbey Island claimed multiple helicopter and at least two Forger kills during that schemozzle, both with AIM-9Ls and with guns(!). I couldn’t tell you if any of them were ever confirmed or officially credited, because see above re: absolute dog’s breakfast, but the RNZAF was right there getting stuck-in.

Poohbah: should I send you a congratulatory fruit-basket, or a bouquet of lilies?

The roots of this disaster were tied up in a thoroughly jacked up command structure.

The Soviet Pacific Fleet's maneuvers prior to the landing attempt were an absolute model of how to slip a major surface force across the Pacific to the enemy's doorstep; obviously, they had good sources on the Navy's prewar ops in Norway and off Kamchatka. But once USS Bremerton got a hit on the force two days out from Puget Sound, and subsequently made like E.T. and phoned home, Gospodin Murphyov got invited to the party.

When the invasion force sortied, they were under the OPCON of the Far Eastern TVD. When they arrived off Vancouver and began to land the landing force, they were under TVD Amerika. But for a crucial 48 hours, they were actually under both.

Now, battle is a highly fluid situation. You plan for your contingencies. You maintain your initiative. The one thing you never do is share command. It's never a good idea.

What ended up happening was that Far Eastern TVD knew the game was blown, and that the Pacific Fleet needed to make an immediate U-Turn and ring up a flank bell back to Vladivostock. TVD Amerika, conversely, was counting on the landings to atritt the forces arrayed against him so that he could maybe, possibly, undo the damage done to him at 49 Easting in New Mexico and Carlton's Backhand Blow outside Casper (aka's "Billy's Bitchslap" once the troops got the concept of a backhand blow explained to them)--and they demanded that the landings go forward. Defense Minister Sokolov sided with TVD Amerika--but took over 36 hours that he did not have available to make that decision, and it was likely that the Soviet Pacific Fleet still would've died even if he'd decided otherwise.

Conversely, once everyone in the US and Canada realized what was coming, the chain of command was adjusted in record time. COMPACFLT declared a condition of Fleet Opposed Invasion--the first since Midway. COMTHIRDFLT was designated the Officer in Tactical Command, and the Numbered Air Force commander in PACNORWEST was directed to immediately liaison with COMTHIRDFLT and ensure that Ivan got a very warm Bienvenidos a los Estados Unidos. Two carrier groups were racing north to intercept the Russian force, and the secure phone lines between NAVSTA Point Loma and Fairchild AFB were going 24/7. The Air Force was going to have to carry more of the battle than they should have until the carriers showed up. Every surface ship tied up at Bremerton was told to sortie. SOPA Bremerton signaled, "Ride for ruin, and the world's ending!"

Army Aviation at Fort Lewis was loading live rounds, and Apache and Cobra gunners were getting briefed on precisely where to put their Hellfires and TOW missiles for best effect. The aviation brigade commander said, "Aim small, miss small." At least one Sovremenny took a Hellfire directly in one of the SS-N-22 quad launchers. That was all she wrote. FOON! Later on, Moskva took a salvo of 2.75s on her flight deck from a Cobra at 1/4 mile, and the ensuing chain reaction of catastrophe killed him deader than Elvis, disco, AND Franco in less than 30 minutes.

Every Trident missile at SWFPAC, working or not, got stuffed into missile tubes on the boomers (nobody wanted the damn things in the magazine, where they could get hit--there was a non-zero chance they could go high-order instead of deflagrating, and that would probably level Bangor), and the boomers sortied into Hood Canal, Dabob Bay, Puget Sound proper, Georgia Strait, the Strait of Juan de Fuca, and even headed into the open ocean if there was enough time.

The difference between two systems of war could not be more sharply demonstrated. The American/Canadian/ANZAC forces had centralized operational command and decentralized tactical execution; the Soviet forces, through multiple unforced errors, ended up having decentralized operational command and centralized tactical execution. One worked. One didn't.

[Poohbah]

Poohbah: should I send you a congratulatory fruit-basket, or a bouquet of lilies?

Not sure yet. There's several other things that need resolving first.

[jemhouston]

Poohbah: should I send you a congratulatory fruit-basket, or a bouquet of lilies?

Not sure yet. There's several other things that need resolving first.

Embrace of the power of And.

A bottle of Bourbon would work in place of either or both.

Puget Sound, one other fact, given the crap the Soviets did in occupied areas was well known. I know at least one person there who saw it as the prefect payback moment.

[Poohbah]

Poohbah: should I send you a congratulatory fruit-basket, or a bouquet of lilies?

Not sure yet. There's several other things that need resolving first.

Embrace of the power of And.

A bottle of Bourbon would work in place of either or both.

Puget Sound, one other fact, given the crap the Soviets did in occupied areas was well known. I know at least one person there who saw it as the prefect payback moment.

Part of the fun was that once the Tridents that had gone to sea were clear of the Strait of Juan de Fuca, the three that had to stay back stuck up ESM masts and tuned in to Citizens Band.

The hills had eyes. People were calling out the course, speed, and numbers of ships from the landing force.

And then the boomers sent torpedoes down the Strait. Just about emptied their torpedo rooms, and slipped off to Georgia Strait to wait it out.

COMSUBRON 10 later said, "Tanaka Raizo, you magnificent bastard, I read your book!"

[jemhouston]

I wonder if any of the boomers got kills. How many ships did the hit?

I remember from the old board, the USS Lafayette (?) got Delta (?) kill while on patrol. Their patrol boxes overlapped and the Lafayette couldn't lose the Delta, so they sank her.

How many Allied boomers got torpedo kills during the war?

[Poohbah]

I wonder if any of the boomers got kills. How many ships did the hit?

I remember from the old board, the USS Lafayette (?) got Delta (?) kill while on patrol. Their patrol boxes overlapped and the Lafayette couldn't lose the Delta, so they sank her.

How many Allied boomers got torpedo kills during the war?

15 hits on 9 ships from ~30 torpedoes fired. Nobody had any idea whose torpedo did what because they were cutting wires and letting them run on program.

Also, there were three collisions just after the torpedoes went active.