History, Politics And Current Affairs

https://taskandpurpose.com/news/marine- ... kBe3uhpsC8

Meanwhile, Gunny Hathcock is rolling in his grave.

Have the Marines been taken over by a cabal of their enemies?

What. The. Absolute. Fuck.

Are they going to eliminate the actual function of Scout/Sniper or are they going to just get rid of the NAME and keep the function? You know, because its not politically correct to shoot people from a long distance away when they don't know they're about to die?

Belushi TD

Belushi TD wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 4:13 pm Are they going to eliminate the actual function of Scout/Sniper or are they going to just get rid of the NAME and keep the function? You know, because its not politically correct to shoot people from a long distance away when they don't know they're about to die?

Belushi TD

It looks like they’re removing the specialized organization and the Scout Sniper school, and creating reconnaissance snipers in the reconnaissance platoon instead.

So, the need still exists, but it looks like they’re going to fill it with (potentially) less qualified personnel.

I am at work so I can't click the youtube link. Can anyone give a short summery of why they are doing this?

Calder wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 5:11 pm I am at work so I can't click the youtube link. Can anyone give a short summery of why they are doing this?

Analysis if the new reorganization of infantry battalions found them deficient in recon assets, so dedicated sniper platoons are being broken up and reorganized into reconnaissance platoons.

I have no idea why they’re closing the scout sniper schools, though.

Johnnie Lyle wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 5:18 pm

Calder wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 5:11 pm I am at work so I can't click the youtube link. Can anyone give a short summary of why they are doing this?

Analysis if the new reorganization of infantry battalions found them deficient in recon assets, so dedicated sniper platoons are being broken up and reorganized into reconnaissance platoons.

I have no idea why they’re closing the scout sniper schools, though.

hmm, reconnaissance is absolutely key on the battlefield. That at least makes sense. But if you close the sniper schools it seems like you are then losing the benefits of moving the snipers into the recon platoons in the first place.

Calder wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 5:43 pm

Johnnie Lyle wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 5:18 pm

Calder wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 5:11 pm I am at work so I can't click the youtube link. Can anyone give a short summary of why they are doing this?

Analysis if the new reorganization of infantry battalions found them deficient in recon assets, so dedicated sniper platoons are being broken up and reorganized into reconnaissance platoons.

I have no idea why they’re closing the scout sniper schools, though.

hmm, reconnaissance is absolutely key on the battlefield. That at least makes sense. But if you close the sniper schools it seems like you are then losing the benefits of moving the snipers into the recon platoons in the first place.

Exactly.

This is an attack on the soul of the Marine Corps. I am getting the sense that the Commandant absolutely hates infantry in particular, and he's now doing his best to destroy the "Every Marine a Rifleman" ethos. The Scout/Sniper is the purest expression of this ethos, much as the Ranger Tab is the purest expression of the Army Infantry Branch's ethos.

Poohbah wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 8:39 pm

Calder wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 5:43 pm

Johnnie Lyle wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 5:18 pm
Analysis if the new reorganization of infantry battalions found them deficient in recon assets, so dedicated sniper platoons are being broken up and reorganized into reconnaissance platoons.

I have no idea why they’re closing the scout sniper schools, though.

hmm, reconnaissance is absolutely key on the battlefield. That at least makes sense. But if you close the sniper schools it seems like you are then losing the benefits of moving the snipers into the recon platoons in the first place.

Exactly.

This is an attack on the soul of the Marine Corps. I am getting the sense that the Commandant absolutely hates infantry in particular, and he's now doing his best to destroy the "Every Marine a Rifleman" ethos. The Scout/Sniper is the purest expression of this ethos, much as the Ranger Tab is the purest expression of the Army Infantry Branch's ethos.

I dunno if the commandant hates infantry; he certainly seems to hate tanks even more. If anything, he looks like he’s longing for the glory days of Wake and Midway as the Marine Corps missions. The new organizations look like base defense forces in practice, with only lip service given to opposed landings.

As near as I can tell from the absolutely painful jargon, the goal of the Littoral Defense Regiments is a reprise of Midway, or the Japanese shuttle bombing at Philippine Sea, but with missiles. I think somebody called Sparky’s Chinese cousin, the one who spouts how missiles from the Chinese artificial islands make it impossible to fight in the South China Sea, and had him write the new organization and mission for the Marines. Essentially, we will somehow identify key island terrain, put a littoral defense regiment on it before the enemy recognizes its key terrain, and then somehow integrate missile fires and Marine aviation with a carrier strike group or submarines.

It doesn’t really address what to do if the enemy gets the key island terrain first, or if we’re on the offensive and punching through an enemy island chain. Especially as we’re giving up a lot of the organic assets (like tanks) that you need for opposed landings.

Lets just say I have concerns about how this will work in practice.

Johnnie Lyle wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 9:16 pm

Poohbah wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 8:39 pm

Calder wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 5:43 pm

hmm, reconnaissance is absolutely key on the battlefield. That at least makes sense. But if you close the sniper schools it seems like you are then losing the benefits of moving the snipers into the recon platoons in the first place.

Exactly.

This is an attack on the soul of the Marine Corps. I am getting the sense that the Commandant absolutely hates infantry in particular, and he's now doing his best to destroy the "Every Marine a Rifleman" ethos. The Scout/Sniper is the purest expression of this ethos, much as the Ranger Tab is the purest expression of the Army Infantry Branch's ethos.

I dunno if the commandant hates infantry; he certainly seems to hate tanks even more. If anything, he looks like he’s longing for the glory days of Wake and Midway as the Marine Corps missions. The new organizations look like base defense forces in practice, with only lip service given to opposed landings.

As near as I can tell from the absolutely painful jargon, the goal of the Littoral Defense Regiments is a reprise of Midway, or the Japanese shuttle bombing at Philippine Sea, but with missiles. I think somebody called Sparky’s Chinese cousin, the one who spouts how missiles from the Chinese artificial islands make it impossible to fight in the South China Sea, and had him write the new organization and mission for the Marines. Essentially, we will somehow identify key island terrain, put a littoral defense regiment on it before the enemy recognizes its key terrain, and then somehow integrate missile fires and Marine aviation with a carrier strike group or submarines.

It doesn’t really address what to do if the enemy gets the key island terrain first, or if we’re on the offensive and punching through an enemy island chain. Especially as we’re giving up a lot of the organic assets (like tanks) that you need for opposed landings.

Lets just say I have concerns about how this will work in practice.

For opposed landings, instead of the organic tanks and artillery the landing force will rely on NGFS with the battleships and cruisers laying on all that heavy bombardment.

oh, wait.......

Johnnie, it's even worse than that. The Marine Littoral Regiment isn't supposed to fight as a regiment. It's going to be broken up into platoon or company battle groups - basically an anti-ship missile launcher and it's bodyguard of infantry and air defense. And the whole concept depends on the Light Amphibious Warship (LAW) - a small LST that hasn't been built yet.

The theory is that using the Light Amphibious Warship, they'll be able to operate inside an enemy's (cough PRC /cough) detection and weapons range without being detected, set up, shoot off some anti-ship missiles, re-board the LAW, and displace before they can be found and attacked.

Looking at a map, I suspect we've already identified the islands in question - the Babuyan Islands and Batanes Islands in the Luzon Strait, and the Senkaku Islands. If we can get there in time, I guess the idea is that it will aid in preventing the PLAN from operating east of Taiwan,

Problem is that the commandant is structuring the entire Corps for this kind of role. Wouldn't it limit its usefulness in anyplace other then the South China Sea? Also that he's depending on the new Large Slow Targets to actually be built and be able to operate in hostile waters/airspace undetected.

Why do I have a feeling when the current commandant is replaced this gets dumped or, worse, the Corp is folded into the Army??

James1978 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 10:54 pm Johnnie, it's even worse than that. The Marine Littoral Regiment isn't supposed to fight as a regiment. It's going to be broken up into platoon or company battle groups - basically an anti-ship missile launcher and it's bodyguard of infantry and air defense. And the whole concept depends on the Light Amphibious Warship (LAW) - a small LST that hasn't been built yet.

The theory is that using the Light Amphibious Warship, they'll be able to operate inside an enemy's (cough PRC /cough) detection and weapons range without being detected, set up, shoot off some anti-ship missiles, re-board the LAW, and displace before they can be found and attacked.

Looking at a map, I suspect we've already identified the islands in question - the Babuyan Islands and Batanes Islands in the Luzon Strait, and the Senkaku Islands. If we can get there in time, I guess the idea is that it will aid in preventing the PLAN from operating east of Taiwan,

Their requirements for the LAW program list "a 25mm or 30mm gun system and .50 caliber machine guns for self-defense" as its only armament. It will be a helpless target against any plane when it's operating on its own, so I can only hope that's not the plan.

Nightwatch2 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 10:50 pm

Johnnie Lyle wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 9:16 pm

Poohbah wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 8:39 pm

Exactly.

This is an attack on the soul of the Marine Corps. I am getting the sense that the Commandant absolutely hates infantry in particular, and he's now doing his best to destroy the "Every Marine a Rifleman" ethos. The Scout/Sniper is the purest expression of this ethos, much as the Ranger Tab is the purest expression of the Army Infantry Branch's ethos.

I dunno if the commandant hates infantry; he certainly seems to hate tanks even more. If anything, he looks like he’s longing for the glory days of Wake and Midway as the Marine Corps missions. The new organizations look like base defense forces in practice, with only lip service given to opposed landings.

As near as I can tell from the absolutely painful jargon, the goal of the Littoral Defense Regiments is a reprise of Midway, or the Japanese shuttle bombing at Philippine Sea, but with missiles. I think somebody called Sparky’s Chinese cousin, the one who spouts how missiles from the Chinese artificial islands make it impossible to fight in the South China Sea, and had him write the new organization and mission for the Marines. Essentially, we will somehow identify key island terrain, put a littoral defense regiment on it before the enemy recognizes its key terrain, and then somehow integrate missile fires and Marine aviation with a carrier strike group or submarines.

It doesn’t really address what to do if the enemy gets the key island terrain first, or if we’re on the offensive and punching through an enemy island chain. Especially as we’re giving up a lot of the organic assets (like tanks) that you need for opposed landings.

Lets just say I have concerns about how this will work in practice.

For opposed landings, instead of the organic tanks and artillery the landing force will rely on NGFS with the battleships and cruisers laying on all that heavy bombardment.

oh, wait.......

We have aviation for that. Much safer and cheaper for all but the pilot and the enemy.

Rocket J Squrriel wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 11:07 pm Problem is that the commandant is structuring the entire Corps for this kind of role. Wouldn't it limit its usefulness in anyplace other then the South China Sea? Also that he's depending on the new Large Slow Targets to actually be built and be able to operate in hostile waters/airspace undetected.

Why do I have a feeling when the current commandant is replaced this gets dumped or, worse, the Corp is folded into the Army??

Navy, give up that budget? Nah.

Rocket J Squrriel wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 11:07 pm Problem is that the commandant is structuring the entire Corps for this kind of role. Wouldn't it limit its usefulness in anyplace other then the South China Sea? Also that he's depending on the new Large Slow Targets to actually be built and be able to operate in hostile waters/airspace undetected.

Why do I have a feeling when the current commandant is replaced this gets dumped or, worse, the Corp is folded into the Army??

To be honest, I’m not so sure that this is a brilliant idea for duking it it China either. But oddly* enough I think that the setup is well suited for Baltic Sea operations. So in other words it may be unsuitable for what it is intended for, but suitable in another theater of operations.

*I have to admit that I think we probably have some blame to shoulder here. The USMC has been overly keen to absorb our concept of amphibious operations in archipelagos. The new concept they’re going for looks like pretty much an upscaled version of ours. Of course fighting a defensive battle against an invading enemy in archipelagos with a bazillion islands and a friendly coastline is quite possibly not the same as doing it on a few isolated islands way out in the ocean. So err yeah, sorry about that.

Johnnie Lyle wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 11:24 pm

Nightwatch2 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 10:50 pm

Johnnie Lyle wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 9:16 pm
I dunno if the commandant hates infantry; he certainly seems to hate tanks even more. If anything, he looks like he’s longing for the glory days of Wake and Midway as the Marine Corps missions. The new organizations look like base defense forces in practice, with only lip service given to opposed landings.

As near as I can tell from the absolutely painful jargon, the goal of the Littoral Defense Regiments is a reprise of Midway, or the Japanese shuttle bombing at Philippine Sea, but with missiles. I think somebody called Sparky’s Chinese cousin, the one who spouts how missiles from the Chinese artificial islands make it impossible to fight in the South China Sea, and had him write the new organization and mission for the Marines. Essentially, we will somehow identify key island terrain, put a littoral defense regiment on it before the enemy recognizes its key terrain, and then somehow integrate missile fires and Marine aviation with a carrier strike group or submarines.

It doesn’t really address what to do if the enemy gets the key island terrain first, or if we’re on the offensive and punching through an enemy island chain. Especially as we’re giving up a lot of the organic assets (like tanks) that you need for opposed landings.

Lets just say I have concerns about how this will work in practice.

For opposed landings, instead of the organic tanks and artillery the landing force will rely on NGFS with the battleships and cruisers laying on all that heavy bombardment.

oh, wait.......

We have aviation for that. Much safer and cheaper for all but the pilot and the enemy.

Leaving aside the “except for the pilot”.

A much heavier volume and weight of sustained fire can be delivered down range from NGFS than aviation. If the objective is in range.

One lesson re-learned from the current unpleasantness is that heavy volumes of sustained fire is critical.

That means artillery. Real artillery is 16”

Nightwatch2 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 2:49 am

Johnnie Lyle wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 11:24 pm

Nightwatch2 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 10:50 pm

For opposed landings, instead of the organic tanks and artillery the landing force will rely on NGFS with the battleships and cruisers laying on all that heavy bombardment.

oh, wait.......

We have aviation for that. Much safer and cheaper for all but the pilot and the enemy.

Leaving aside the “except for the pilot”.

Being absolutely cold-blooded, it’s better to write one letter than several. A horrible day for an aviation squadron is a light day for surface, subsurface and especially for infantry.

Being snarky, submariners and surface sailors are cuter. Though I have seen some hot Zoomies.

Nightwatch2 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 2:49 am A much heavier volume and weight of sustained fire can be delivered down range from NGFS than aviation. If the objective is in range.

One lesson re-learned from the current unpleasantness is that heavy volumes of sustained fire is critical.

That means artillery. Real artillery is 16”

That may have been true as recently as the 1990s or early 2000s, but cheap smart munitions and vastly improved surveillance and accuracy means that the days-long bombardments of WWII, Korea and Vietnam are unnecessary. Nor is sustained fire by a fixed unit on a single target used anymore - that’s a good way to get located, counterbatteried, and hit with a bad case of dead. Nor does sustained fire do much in the way of killing. At best, it neutralizes. The real killing power is in the first salvos. By salvo six or so, the target is dead or in cover.

The name of the game with land artillery is shoot and scoot. I’sd argue the real benefit of tube or rocket artillery vs aircraft is responsiveness. Tube arty can be on target in minutes. Airpower can do that only if they’re already loitering.

Fortunately, air support has vastly greater loiter time than previously, especially once we kill enemy air defenses. Stuart pointed out years ago that it’s now targets per sortie, not sorties per target. That massively increases an air group’s ability to absolutely kill ground targets at 30,000 feet and generate the responsiveness of tube arty with vastly greater oompf. Said loiter is even easier by reconfiguring our carriers and doctrine around a continuous stream of aircraft instead of a giant alpha-strike.

The biggest gap in our arsenal is probably the small air groups. 48 ac/CVN doesn’t generate the killing power we need. Double it.

Micael wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 12:40 am

Rocket J Squrriel wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 11:07 pm Problem is that the commandant is structuring the entire Corps for this kind of role. Wouldn't it limit its usefulness in anyplace other then the South China Sea? Also that he's depending on the new Large Slow Targets to actually be built and be able to operate in hostile waters/airspace undetected.

Why do I have a feeling when the current commandant is replaced this gets dumped or, worse, the Corp is folded into the Army??

To be honest, I’m not so sure that this is a brilliant idea for duking it it China either. But oddly* enough I think that the setup is well suited for Baltic Sea operations. So in other words it may be unsuitable for what it is intended for, but suitable in another theater of operations.

*I have to admit that I think we probably have some blame to shoulder here. The USMC has been overly keen to absorb our concept of amphibious operations in archipelagos. The new concept they’re going for looks like pretty much an upscaled version of ours. Of course fighting a defensive battle against an invading enemy in archipelagos with a bazillion islands and a friendly coastline is quite possibly not the same as doing it on a few isolated islands way out in the ocean. So err yeah, sorry about that.

You probably won’t have a carrier battle group ruthlessly rampaging through the OA, though.

Most of these Chinese outposts are going to get absolutely obliterated by naval air before they even know what hit them if we get into a shooting war.