Plotting out WWIII: It's Really HARD

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MKSheppard
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Plotting out WWIII: It's Really HARD

Post by MKSheppard »

I started writing this as a commentary to a thread I was reviving in the ESSAYs section:

viewtopic.php?t=3314
Wizards of Armageddon by Fred Kaplan

and it kind of quickly took a life of it's own as I started to think through the implications...to the point that I just split it off into it's own thread.

======================================

20 years ago in May 2006, I wrote this regarding ICBM launch times -- this was a complete SWAG rectal extraction figure:

Say, 10 minutes or longer the blue touch paper to be ignited and double, triple, quadruple cross checked by the Silo commanders, who then run through the launch sequence with lots of redunancy checks and calling back to home plate "Hey, are we REALLY REALLY REALLY in a war?"

This...is actually very close to the real figure.

https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/document/1934 ... -aerospace

Aerospace Systems Analysis, McDonnell Douglas Astronautics Company, Arms Control Implications of Strategic Offensive Weapons Systems, Volume IV, Technological Feasibility of Launch on Warning and Flyout Under Attack, Prepared for U.S. Arms Control and Disarmament Agency, ACDA ST/196, June 1971, Secret, Excised Copy
Page 12:

"Other significant delays in the command link are the four minutes required for formatting and transmitting the launch command from the National Military Command Center (NMCC) to the Launch Control Center (LCC) and the 11 minutes needed for decoding and verifying the message and initating the launch."

NOTE: This interval is determined by the slowest crew for fail-safe and attack coordination reasons and by no means is a lower bound on the time required.

Page 39:

The most important and the most surprising of the delays is the 11 minutes required by the launch control crew to receive, decode, authenticate and execute the launch command. This time delay is not a minimum or even the average of all launch crews but rather it is an interval which has been established by Air Force Doctrine to insure that no crew attempts to launch before all crews have completed their pre-launch functions."

There are two reasons why this interval is determined by the slowest crew.

The first results from a fail-safe mechanism built into the Minuteman control. Within each squadron (50 missiles and 5 launch control centers [LCC]) the LCC's are interconnected so that any LCC can cancel a launch command issued by any other LCC. Thus, if even one crew in a squadron has not completed processing of the launch command it can (and must) cancel any other crew's command.

The second reason results from the requirement for a common time reference for all the missiles. This common reference is required in order that the coordination built into the missile targeting can be accomplished; this, in turn, is required to avoid fratricide at multiply-targeted aimpoints and to insure proper sequencing of RV's which are attacking defense units, etc.

It is understood that at one time this interval was fixed at six minutes but some crews were incapable of meeting this standard. The 11-minute delay in the launch control center, together with the four minutes required to process code and transmit the launch command, mean that 15 minutes are required to get Minuteman out of their holes after the decision to launch is made."
Now, why is Fratricide such a big thing and why does a Minuteman Squadron (50 missiles) have to launch their missiles almost simultaneously?

RAND R-1754-PR
The U.S. ICBM Force: Current Issues and Future Options (U)
October 1975

was a SECRET/RESTRICTED DATA level study, and it has some interesting commentary:
"There is some argument about the technical feasibility of attacks upon the ICBM force using large numbers of closely spaced RVs because of "dust and fratricide," i.e., nuclear weapons’ mutual interference effects. The question is how many RVs can be effectively targeted on each ICBM silo in a single attack that would be sufficiently compressed in time as to deny any intervening opportunity to launch the force. Assuming no shortage of attack RVs, the answer appears to depend upon (a) the time-of-arrival "window" for RVs that will avoid serious mutual interference effects, and (b) the means for controlling the attacking missiles within the time and geometrical constraints imposed.

The weapon interference effects of concern are (a) nuclear radiation, where the prompt neutron effects on nuclear materials could cause weapon failure, (b) shock waves, where the blast and wind loads upon the RV could cause impact dispersions or structural failures, and (c) dust and debris, where erosion of the RV heat shield could also cause dispersions or structural failure. These effects can result from multiple detonations at the same or adjacent targets.

In general, weapons aimed at the same target define the minimum weapon spacing and, hence, a lower bound on the time-of-arrival window because of the potential for fratricide due to shock waves or radiation. This lower bound on weapon time separation is typically 3 to 5 sec, depending upon the RV velocity, which, in turn, depends upon whether the RV has a high or low aerodynamic loading (beta). The upper bound on the window is defined by shock waves from weapons at adjacent targets which could cause dispersions of the incoming RV and is about 10 to 18 sec, depending upon the spacing between adjacent targets (typically 3 to 5 mi in the Minuteman deployments). Even though the time-of-arrival window thus defined is bounded by short-term effects (radiation and shock waves), further windows are believed by some to be closed by dust clouds and falling debris for as long as 30 to 60 min.

If only one RV is targeted on each silo, all adjacent weapons would have to arrive within a span of 10 to 18 sec to avoid interference effects. While this degree of attack control is generally believed to be technically feasible, backup reprogramming missiles after boost failures within this time window appears to be a significant challenge: To reprogram after late failures in the boost phase, the reprogrammed missiles may be launch-delayed by as much as six minutes with respect to the programmed attack, and this difference would have to be recovered in the flight times of the backup missiles. A combination of means has been proposed for this control of flight times: (a) launching the attack from the longest-range sites and reprogramming backup missiles from shorter-range sites, and (b) launching the attack on lofted trajectories and reprogramming backups with depressed trajectories. The arguments about these possibilities are not so much about their technical feasibility as their credibility for an actual attack.

If two RVs are targeted at the same silo, the weapons would have to be separated by at least 3 to 5 sec, and yet all pairs arrive within the same 10 to 18 sec at all adjacent silos. The number of arriving weapons to be coordinated within the narrower time constraints has doubled, and the uncertainties in attack timing and weapon effects (e.g., stem size) are seen as being significant when compared to the attacker’s timing tolerances and risks. Hence, there remains some argument as to the technical feasibility and credibility of a single-wave coordinated attack using two surface bursts on each silo.

Several alternative attack schemes have been suggested as a means for avoiding interaction effects with two RVs targeted on each silo. One is to ignore the minimum spacing required between weapons and use the second weapon as a simple backup should the first RV fail either to arrive or to detonate. Since this approach would compensate only for the weapon system’s unreliability and not for the random aiming errors, it may not be an efficient use of attack resources. It could, however, eliminate many of the complexities of reprogramming the attack; and some would argue that the Soviets need not be concerned that the use of their larger throw weight be efficient.

Another approach would be to minimize the dust and debris by programming the first RV to airburst; this would be followed by a ground burst of the second RV. The timing window might be widened by as much as five minutes in the period otherwise considered closed by early dust and debris effects. This would require airburst fuzing and probably some hardening of the RVs against the airburst effects. Moreover, the airburst may not be as effective against the silos as a ground burst, and the fuzing might be countermeasured.

Still other tactics include delayed detonation of the weapons (earth penetrating mines that could be simultaneously triggered) and offset aimpoints that would separate the arriving weapons in space (straddling the target) rather than separating their time of arrival at the target. These demand sacrifices in RV weight or effectiveness, and they appear to be not so much serious proposals as speculative possibilities for a resourceful and determined attacker.

It is now generally accepted that three RVs on the same silo cannot pass through the 10- to 18-sec time-of-arrival window with any credible margin for error and still avoid serious interaction effects.

...

Abnormal environmental conditions can produce water, ice, and dust in the atmosphere that could accelerate the erosion of the RVs to the point of introducing large dispersions or even destroying them. The problem is most severe for RVs having a high aerodynamic loading. One concern is that large geographical areas (containing targets) may be temporarily protected by passing storm systems that interfere with reentry. The resolution of the present uncertainties will depend upon current efforts to assess weather in the target areas and to ensure that RVs will withstand adverse weather conditions.

The environmental hazards for RVs caused by the detonations of weapons upon closely spaced targets are more severe than those expected from natural phenomena. As was described earlier, the dust and fratricide effects can be mitigated by careful control of the attack timing, at least for one, and perhaps two, weapons per aim point."
When you look at historic SLBM launch times --
Cold War Submarines: The Design and Construction of U.S. and Soviet Submarines
By Norman Polmar, Kenneth J. Moore
Page 123 [Referring to Polaris]

“The time to prepare missiles for launching after receipt of a launch order was about 15 minutes; the missiles could then be launched at intervals of about one minute. The submerged Polaris submarine had to be stationary or moving at a maximum of about one knot to launch. The launch depth (from the keel of the submarine) was about 125 feet.”

US Submarines Since 1945
By Norman Friedman
Page 244

“SSBN 598 and 608 classes could launch missiles at the rate of one per minute; SSBN 616 could launch four per minute. These figures apply to Polaris, not necessarily to later missiles.”

Global Zero Alert for Nuclear Forces
By Bruce G. Blair
Page 62 [Trident D-5]

“101. In addition to longer flight limes, the D-5 launches would be staggered, with time intervals of twenty seconds between each. The last of the Trident's twenty-four missiles would thus fire eight minutes after the first was launched, giving the Russian force additional time to respond.”

Federation of American Scientists (FAS) (LINK)
Page on 667A YANKEE I

“The SSBN 667A is equipped with the D-5 launch system and 16 R-27 missiles with a range of about 2400 km. They are arranged in two rows in the fourth and fifth compartments. The missiles can be launched from a depth of 40-50 meters below the surface, while the submarine is moving at a speed of up to 3-4 knots. The missiles are fired in four salvos each comprising four missiles. The time needed for pre-launch preparation is 8 minutes, and within a salvo the missiles are fired at intervals of 8 seconds. After each salvo the submarine needs three minutes return to the launching depth and between the second and third salvo it takes 20-35 minutes to pump water from the tanks into the launching tubes.”

Cold War Submarines: The Design and Construction of U.S. and Soviet Submarines
By Norman Polmar, Kenneth J. Moore
Page 169

“The 667A/Yankee could launch from depths to 165 feet (50 m), compared to less than half that depth for Polaris launches, and the submarine could be moving at three to six knots, while U.S. missile submarines were required to move considerably slower or—preferably—to hover while launching missiles. The time for prelaunch preparations was approximately ten minutes; the launch lime for a salvo of four missiles was 24 seconds. However, there were pauses between salvoes so that at least 27 minutes were required from the launching of the first and last missiles. (The later Project 667BDRM/Delta IV SSBN could launch all 16 missiles within one minute while steaming up to five knots.)”

Soviet Naval Tactics
By Milan N. Vego
Page 165

“A Soviet SSBN can reportedly start launching its missiles 15 minutes after receiving the order from the command authority ashore. Ballistic missiles can be launched at intervals of one minute or less. For example, the Typhoon class can fire a salvo of two missiles within 15 seconds of each other; by contrast, the older Yankee Is require intervals of almost two minutes.”

The Logic of Accidental Nuclear War
By Bruce G. Blair
Page 161

“For a modern Soviet SSBN on combat patrol the time between the receipt of final launch orders and first missile breaking water was about seventeen minutes according to exercise data collected by the United States. An SSBN crew member who served on Delta II and Delta III SSBNs observed launch sequences that ranged from nine minutes to fifteen minutes. Twelve minutes was typical: six for prelaunch procedures, including message validation, and six more for final launch preparations, which were largely automated. Missiles were then automatically fired from each tube, one at a time, zigzagging from one end of the boat to the other. There was a four- to twelve-second interval between each missile launch.”
That you start understanding, why STRATCOM wanted SENTINEL to replace Minuteman III, instead of just putting everything onto SSBNs -- it's not just USAF parochalism -- and why the US keeps rejecting mobile ICBMs.

It's because SSBNs + Mobile ICBMs have massively unreliable launch times because of how the SSBN + Mobile ICBM force is dispersed -- dozens of boats / hundreds of launchers spread across a massive amount of land/sea, with limited + poor data links, making it all but impossible to do more than local coordination:

* -- All SLBMs on a single SSBN...this BTW makes you wonder about the reasons the US and USSR used to justify going to 24 (OHIO) and 20 (TYPHOON) tubes, instead of 16 on the DELTA/POLARIS boats.

* -- All Mobile ICBMs within a 40-60 mile radius of wherever that Strategic Missile Squadron (Mobile)'s Command HQ has set up their vehicles for that day.

IOW, if you want to do "precise" counterforce against very hard targets (enemy silos + LCCs + other very high VN targets), you need a land based silo force to coordinate it all.

The 12th Strategic Missile Squadron at Malmstrom can launch all 50 of it's Minuteman IIIs within a very tight time interval; possibly within a second of each other given a known time hack to launch from and accurate clocks in each silo (needed for missile accuracy anyway).

By contrast, a single Ohio SSBN can only launch less than half the number of missiles over eight minutes, with 20 second intervals between each missile.

Consider this statement from the RAND report:

further windows are believed by some to be closed by dust clouds and falling debris for as long as 30 to 60 min.

and what it means for targeting a SSBN's missile(s), if it takes 20 second intervals to launch a missile; but the 'window' to hit a target and avoid mutual MIRV fratricide is only about 3 to 6 seconds 'wide' before that target is closed off for the next 20-40 minutes due to dirt thrown up by a groundburst on said 'hard target'.

It's possible that if the range(s) aren't at the missile's maximum and the processing power on the SSBNs high enough, each missile could have it's trajectory individually adjusted before launch (in conjunction with post-boost vehicle manuvering) to achieve a near zero delta for simultaneous MIRV impacts; but you wouldn't be able to do this for more than maybe five missiles. Additionally, the first missiles would have to fly a lofted trajectory compared to the later missiles' flatter trajectories.

BTW, this would mean that Multiple Missile Simultaneous Impact (MMSI) as a technique from a single SSBN would be more vulnerable to enemy ABM systems than a "normal" SSBN launch or siloed ICBM launch.

Trident no matter what the Navies (Royal and US) said/say about it's capabilities, is largely a "counter-medium-hard" system in the first few waves of nuclear exchanges due to hard constraints imposed by timing + fratricide.

It's not ideal for targeting very hard targets such as missile silos or LCCs requiring extreme timing across a large amount of widely geographically separated DGZs, along with extreme precision, which requires a 'clear' sky free of dust clouds.

What Trident could handle in the first wave(s) are the whole clutch of medium-hard targets across the Soviet Union / Russia where a loss of precision isn't catastrophic.

For example at Engels-2 (51.481111, 46.210556); the main runway(s) are about 3 km long; a 455 KT W88 detonated at ground level pretty much covers half the runways in a fireball, the entire runway in 500 REM radiation, and all of the base in 5 PSI airblast per NUKEMAP.

Even if the W88 is off course by several hundred meters after coming down at 20,000+ ft/sec into the sandblast of a previous weapon's mushroom cloud; it's still going to pretty much total Engels-2 as a workable bomber base.

This may be why the Air Force (reluctantly) supported Trident at the JCS level; because the increases in accuracy allowed USN SSBNs to handle a much larger portion of the target set previously serviced by Minutemen, allowing those released Minutemen to be reallocated to the hardest, most time critical targets (i.e. Soviet silo fields + LCCs) -- important as the AF ICBM fleet was fixed at about a thousand missiles.

Another limitation on SSBNs that I've just realized are their launch signatures.

Because of the existence of the SS-N-15 Starfish from 1969 onwards (and the US counterpart in SUBROC), SSBNs couldn't fight a protracted nuclear war during the Cold War: hour one, launch two SLBMs, hour five, launch four more, etc -- because everyone could work back the trajectories required to hit high value targets and produce probability plots of likely launch locations and front load those areas with SSNs during peacetime.

It doesn't matter how quiet your SSBN is if your missile launches dump tons of noise into the water.

With a 40~ nautical mile range for SUBROC/STARFISH plus an hour or two at 25 knot sprint speed for an enemy SSN, it makes no sense to leisurely launch missiles in singletons or pairs and withhold the rest for later use, as someone could be within the required 80~ nm to splash you with a nuclear depth charge after you launch 1/4 of your tubes ... or simply chase you down with a maritime patrol aircraft.

So all the early first and second generation SSBNs are "use them once and done" wargasm type launchers due to this calculus.

With this in mind, it's starting to make sense why the US and USSR both went to supremely gigantic missiles with Trident II (D-5) and R-39 (SS-N-20 STURGEON) giving ranges of 5,000 to 7,000 plus miles.

Both sides' navies knew how inflexible 1st/2nd Generation SSBNs were due to their short ranges -- by going to very large missiles for third generation SSBNs, they could "fort" up the SSBNs:

Russians: Barents+Kara+Okhotsk Sea Bastions

US Navy: South Atlantic + Indian + Pacific Oceans

In areas where almost zero enemy units would be encountered; allowing for the SSBNs to be selectively used (two out of 20 missiles) in each individual attack wave, rather than being forced to expend everything in one smash.

Another realization I made was that while ICBMs can quickly coordinate a massed attack from hundreds of silos within a very tight time variance; the SSBN fleet is much slower to react.

Air Force missileers get their EAMs "relatively" fast due to their flat organizational structure and interior communications inside CONUS; the Bubbleheads are going to have to go through several (lengthy) steps to confirm a valid launch order:

1.) First receive and deciper a ELF message on their towed wire array or a VLF message on their Towed Buoy Antenna "ringing the bell" and telling them to come up shallow. (15 minutes)

2A.) Rise to transmission/launch depth; rectal guess is from 800 ft to 70 ft; that takes about 16 minutes @ 5 knots @ 5 degree up angle.

2B.) Reel in the ELF array or the VLF Buoy while ascending, figure about another 5 to 10 minutes, depending on how concurrently they can do this with #2A. You COULD cut the wire on the array or buoy, but they don't know if it's a test or The Big One (TM).

3.) At transmission/launch depth, receive and decipher a much higher data rate message. (15 minutes)

Total time would be about 35-40 minutes; then a couple more minutes (call it 5) for them to actually set Condition 1SQ Battle Stations Missile and turn the keys; because a lot of launch preparations can be done concurrently with #3 while you wait for them to confirm launch order validity.

You could shave a few minutes here and there off various tasks; but the hard limits of submarine vulnerability and hull fatigue life trend towards a longer (more bits of entropy) "bell ringer" EAM that's harder for the enemy to spoof or Ensign Zipster to accidentially send the "come up for daily check" signal on.

Adding insult to injury is that due to the vagaries of the maritime environment, not all SSBNs are going to receive the Bell Ringers/EAMs on the first transmission cycles -- some boats will respond faster, etc.

The Navy has no idea which boats are going to be in Condition 1SQ Battle Stations Missile in 35 minutes; or which ones are going to need 45-50 minutes... the ocean is a very messy place.

Which is why I feel the operational planning for the SSBN force (past and present) has emphasized pre-scheduling to a point beyond the land-based missile force -- i.e. the Navy's EAMs call out M for Missile Hour at a specified hour/minute/second as far as one or more hours into the future.

This (relatively) late response has several advantages -- it means that the SSBN COs aren't going to "rush" getting into firing position so as to not "miss" thermonuclear war; so they'll be more cautious in ascending to launch depth and sanitizing the area before launch.
Reality of Exchanges SSBNs.png
A rough guess as to the timeline of a nuclear war based on the above information would go something like this:

30 Seconds (0.5 minutes) for Sensors to detect an enemy launch and raise it to a quality enough to get NORAD involved.

60 Seconds (1 minute) for NORAD to decide if it's a spurious signal or not; and whether or not to call an attack conference.

600 seconds (10 minutes)
to
1200 seconds (20 minutes)

Attack Conference is spun up, bombers scrambled, POTUS dialed in, and a decision made; either by the first detonations of depressed trajectory SLBMs against West or East Coast targets [10 minutes] or when enemy ICBMs are about fifteen minutes from striking their targets and have been picked up by multiple systems all agreeing with each other [20 minutes].

240 seconds (4 minutes) for the NMCC to encode the launch order(s) for non-recallable systems and transmit it to the various branches (AF + Navy etc).

660 seconds (11 minutes) for the USAF LCCs to decode and authenticate their launch orders.

A former MM trajectory guy did some public unclassified estimates on basic trajectory parameters for -30A, -30B, -30F Heavy and -30F Light here:

https://bpb-us-e1.wpmucdn.com/wordpress ... lation.pdf

It's between 2120 seconds (35.33 minutes) and 2593 seconds (43.21 minutes) for Minutemen to impact their targets in Russia. We'll call it 2260 seconds (37.6 minutes) for general rough purposes.

At this point, there are two different timelines in play:

=======================

TIMELINE A:

If the decision to launch was made following NUDETS on CONUS coastal cities -- i.e. SUBROC-ski into Norfolk, then it's now 26:30 into the war; and Soviet ICBMs are about 8.5 to 10 minutes from impact on CONUS.

It takes about 170 seconds (2.9~ minutes) for an ICBM to be "safe" from damage during flyout, so the Minutemen (and Peacekeepers) will have a 300+ second margin of safety; so our counterforce retaliatory strikes will get off safely.

=======================

TIMELINE B:

If the decision to launch was delayed until a definite confirmation of Launch Under Attack (LUA) was received; i.e. an attack conference of 20 minutes -- then by the time the AF missileers finish decoding their attack orders, we'll be 36:30 into the war; and Soviet ICBMs will already be detonating in the US; or will be only minutes from detonation.

The flyout risk for our ICBMs would have been noted during the attack conference and I'm sure there were scores of mathematical studies on the optimum number of missiles to risk in flyout during a scenario like this.

We'd have to balance the risk of missile lossses during launch against how good we thought Soviet ICBM accuracy was at the time.

Low Soviet Accuracy: Keep most missiles in silo(s) and ride out the attack.

High Soviet Accuracy: Launch missiles, accepting risk of destruction in boost phase; as the missiles will be safer in flight than in the silo(s).

=======================

Because of the confusion in keeping track of two timelines in a serial format; at this point I'm going to switch to Timeline B for ease of it all.

While a depressed trajectory SLBM or SUBROC-ski shot at Norfolk or DC to open the war would be nice; there's greater advantage in delaying a US launch by not providing a "flaming datum" so soon.

At around 37 minutes into the war; the first wave of Soviet RVs impact US ICBM sites and other high value targets, setting the Great Plains on fire, even as Minutemen flyout towards their targets in Russia.

If Airborne Alert is available due to a period of heightened tensions, these aircraft are now executing Wing Attack Plan R.

Also around this time 37-40 minutes into the war, the first SSBN "bell ring" authentications begin at around this time.

56~ minutes into the war; as more Soviet ICBMs continue to rain down onto the US; the surviving American ICBMs start reaching their apogees, while across the oceans, American SSBNs are rising to launch depth for confirmation.

71~ minutes on; the SSBNs finish deciphering their EAMs, which leads into a big timing question coming up in a few minutes...

74~ minutes into the war; the first Minutemen begin hitting their targets in the Soviet Union. In an alternate universe, the first SKYBOLT III missiles (12~ minute flight time) are also hitting their targets on the periphery of the Soviet Union at around this time after being launched by B-52K's. Unfortunately, in our reality, we don't have ALBMs.

This is where we have to do a serious timing "gut check":

It's one hour and fourteen minutes into World War III.

Large portions of high value targets in the Soviet Union and the United States are now burning.

Significant quantities of dust and debris are now floating in the atmosphere, where they'll remain threats to high velocity re-entries for 30 to 60 more minutes by the laws of hypersonic re-entry physics.

If the US SSBN's now available launch a counter-force "hard target" strike ASAP at 74~ minutes into the war against Soviet ICBM fields; they're going to hit the dust clouds; which will still be exant at 1 hour and 51 minutes when those SLBMs arrive.

It's going to take until 134 minutes into the war (2 hours and 14 minutes) for the worst case of cloud dispersal.

As such, incorporating a 30~ minute delay into the SSBN launch order(s) so that they launch at 100-105 minutes into the war is advantageous for multiple reasons:

1.) Ensures more of the SSBN fleet is ready for a choreographed response - i.e. 'laggards' are accounted for; enabling limited cross-boat "hard target" strikes without relying too much on trajectory shaping for Multiple Missile Simultaneous Impacts (MMSIs).

2.) The DGZ's for #1 and other locations will have cleared by the time of impact of dust from the initial USAF Minuteman/Peacekeeper strikes.

So, a potential Ohio SSBN strike package with a prescheduled launch delay might work out like this, if you're fairly certain of SSBN survival to this point:

Attack Package Type A:

SSBNs #1, #2, & #3 all launch with the following pre-allocated targets:

Missile Tube #1: Soviet ICBM Field A
Missile Tube #2: Soviet ICBM Field B
Missile Tube #3: Soviet ICBM Field C

So that each missile field gets at least 3 SLBMs launched at precise known times so that fratricide can be minimized -- this is how you account for missile/post-boost vehicle unreliability if you can only launch once every 20~ seconds and you don't want to get too exotic with trajectory shaping.

Attack Package Type B:

In this alternate, SSBN's #1, #2, and #3 all share the targeting plan with no cross-boat decking:

SSBN #1 goes after ICBM Field A with three missiles.
SSBN #2 goes after ICBM Field B with three missiles.
SSBN #3 goes after ICBM Field C with three missiles.

In both cases (A and B), the SSBN's after launching the Hard Target strike package, shift to softer targets; such as radar sites, enemy airfields, etc to maximize ROI per missile at sea.

=================================================
One Hundred Minutes into World War III
=================================================

While the first SSBN package is being launched; there's a lot going on elsewhere; with a lot of other "actors" in play:

1.) Communications in the US (and to a lesser extent the USSR) are going to be fragmentary and confused, depending on how much of the NCA in both the US and Soviet Union survived the initial wave one attacks.

2.) Information on what's going on in the Missile Fields is going to be very fragmentary until the dust clouds settle enough -- we might well see a Program 494L Minuteman ERCS be launched by the 510th SMS at Whiteman (they had 10~ MM2 loaded with ERCS instead of nukes) simply as a "hey, we're alive here, the board is green for 21 out of 50 silos" if all other methods of communicating failed.

3.) Europe is a major wild card, thanks to all the INF forces hanging around there. A pre-emptive Soviet attack in Europe would've tipped the US hand towards executing Launch Under Attack (LUA) earlier; so I'm leaning towards the Soviets delaying a decision on Europe until RVs are impacting CONUS.

4.) The SR-71 might be flying a round trip mission from England to Turkey for post Nuclear BDA -- the distance from England->Balts->Belarus->Kiev->Istanbul is about 2,300 miles; within the Blackbird's unrefuelled range.

5.) How federated were KH-11 KENNEN downlinks in the 1980s? It does us no good to use them for post-Nuke BDA if the only downlink near the NCA c.1983 is at NSA HQ in Fort Meade, and it got hit by 300 KT; etc.

6.) The SAC Ground Alert Bombers that took off from the northern CONUS bases (Wurtsmith, Minot, etc) are somewhere over Lower Canada now and about 3800 miles (6.9~ hours) from reaching the Soviet Union's borders; or 3.9~ hours from ALCM launch points.

If Airborne Alert is in action up north near Greenland; they're roughly 2000 miles (3.6~ hours) from the USSR's borders, or 1~ hour of ALCM launch points.

7.) The War At Sea [tm] may not quite have started at this point outside of Strategic Units -- it's important to remember that our current "hyperwar" state of knowing everything that's happening in Moscow ten minutes after a drone attack wave hit it is a very recent development.

You can be sure though that on the CVs and CVNs, the nukes are being broken out of the special weapons exclusion areas and Soviet AGIs are riddled with gunfire and sinking.

=================================================

This is getting complicated FAST.

I'm at the point where I need to either get a big giant wallboard and set it up with a Gantt chart; or do it digitally with project management software to try and keep track of what's going on where and why; WWIII c. 1978-1985 and onwards isn't like the more sedate 1950s.

I'm starting to understand what Stu meant with this comment back in 2002:
The key point to all this is that its essential to consider the consequences of actions, not just the actions themselves. Not just first-level consequences but second - third- and fourth-level consequences.

When somebody proposed a course of action a mentor of mine Herman Kahn (pbuh) had a nasty of habit of asking "and that means what?" to each development in the proposal. When somebody couldn't answer they got a stony "Then find out and come back"
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MKSheppard
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Re: Plotting out WWIII: It's Really HARD

Post by MKSheppard »

Something that occurred to me when thinking about comms in a post-nuclear environment in the later part of the Cold War was the AT&T Long Lines system.
ATT_LongLines.jpg
The components of it were hardened to survive a nuclear war, with EMP proofing, and automatic failover switches to generator power; but how well would the microwave links (C-Band 4-8 GHz) cope with nuclear dust clouds? A quick literature search reveals that Volcanic ash clouds are visible (i.e. occlude) in C-Band.

It seems to me that a couple of really well placed warheads across the US could not only destroy the Long Lines ground equipment, but also occlude the C-band links for an unknown period of time; preventing "spare" Long Lines transmitter towers from being brought online (surely the system designers must have thought of this at some point for certain highly critical nodes?); and isolating the heartland of the US from the C3I/NCA centers on the East Coast (Washington DC, Raven Rock, etc)

Even with LOOKING GLASS + the E-4 fleet + satellite communications in the latter part of the Cold War, I'm getting the feeling that a lot of information would be getting lost in the "turbulence" following heavy strikes on CONUS -- a true "there be dragons here" moment.

The counterpoint is also true here; the Soviet Union is even more at risk to this attack strategy; given the vast expanses of the Soviet Far East.

EDIT: Canada is also very vulnerable; I don't know if the Canadian version of Ma Bell was as prolific or did their own Canadian version alongside the Long Lines System, but it's looking to me that you could significantly degrade communications betwen Western Canada and Eastern Canada with one or two strikes. You'd still be able to reroute data around the destroyed nodes; but that data would have to go into the US and then back up into Canada; and there's a lot of room for signals degradation or loss in between that.
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Re: Plotting out WWIII: It's Really HARD

Post by Poohbah »

MKSheppard wrote: Sun Apr 20, 2025 4:39 pm Something that occurred to me when thinking about comms in a post-nuclear environment in the later part of the Cold War was the AT&T Long Lines system.

ATT_LongLines.jpg

The components of it were hardened to survive a nuclear war, with EMP proofing, and automatic failover switches to generator power; but how well would the microwave links (C-Band 4-8 GHz) cope with nuclear dust clouds? A quick literature search reveals that Volcanic ash clouds are visible (i.e. occlude) in C-Band.

It seems to me that a couple of really well placed warheads across the US could not only destroy the Long Lines ground equipment, but also occlude the C-band links for an unknown period of time; preventing "spare" Long Lines transmitter towers from being brought online (surely the system designers must have thought of this at some point for certain highly critical nodes?); and isolating the heartland of the US from the C3I/NCA centers on the East Coast (Washington DC, Raven Rock, etc)

Even with LOOKING GLASS + the E-4 fleet + satellite communications in the latter part of the Cold War, I'm getting the feeling that a lot of information would be getting lost in the "turbulence" following heavy strikes on CONUS -- a true "there be dragons here" moment.

The counterpoint is also true here; the Soviet Union is even more at risk to this attack strategy; given the vast expanses of the Soviet Far East.

EDIT: Canada is also very vulnerable; I don't know if the Canadian version of Ma Bell was as prolific or did their own Canadian version alongside the Long Lines System, but it's looking to me that you could significantly degrade communications betwen Western Canada and Eastern Canada with one or two strikes. You'd still be able to reroute data around the destroyed nodes; but that data would have to go into the US and then back up into Canada; and there's a lot of room for signals degradation or loss in between that.
Worth noting that a noticeable chunk of Long Lines went into Omaha.

Also worth noting that after the Cold War ended, a lot of telecom-dependent businesses set up shop in Omaha because there was so much excess capacity freed up by the transition from SAC to STRATCOM and the end of the Bad Old Days.
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Re: Plotting out WWIII: It's Really HARD

Post by Lukexcom »

So if the SSBN part of the triad was effectively only good for softer-counterforce and countervalue strikes, but while also being quite survivable during a nuclear exchange, then it would almost suggest that at least some of the fleet (or at least some of the tubes on each boat) be held back to allow the US to maintain at least some limited form of its Assured Destruction policy even after a full nuclear exchange?

Since you’ll have to use up nearly your entire ICBM arsenal on the hard-counterforce attack anyway, and who knows what will be left of the bomber fleet on day 2 or 3.

Assuming a late 1980s OOB and weapons stockpile, that is. I have no idea how viable this would be with a 2025 OOB and our relatively small stockpile.
-Luke
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Re: Plotting out WWIII: It's Really HARD

Post by Craiglxviii »

Ehhhmmm wasn’t there some data uncovered here- it may have been on the last iteration of this board, toward the end- on the inability of Soviet SLBMs to fly depressed-trajectory?

I seem to recall, their electronics could only handle ambient temperatures of up to c.55 C (may be off, but it was VERY low vs the 70-80 C of Western kit) and that the submarines themselves possessed inadequate computing power to calculate the depressed trajectory solutions.
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MKSheppard
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Re: Plotting out WWIII: It's Really HARD

Post by MKSheppard »

Craiglxviii wrote: Mon Apr 21, 2025 10:10 am Ehhhmmm wasn’t there some data uncovered here- it may have been on the last iteration of this board, toward the end- on the inability of Soviet SLBMs to fly depressed-trajectory?

I seem to recall, their electronics could only handle ambient temperatures of up to c.55 C (may be off, but it was VERY low vs the 70-80 C of Western kit) and that the submarines themselves possessed inadequate computing power to calculate the depressed trajectory solutions.
That was from me. :D

Thanks for reminding me of that.

BTW, I just had a shower thought.

If Dust Clouds from NUDETS can degrade/destroy/make inaccurate incoming RVs; why not make your own dust cloud from a 1 MT nuke buried in the center of your ICBM field? Dust cloud abrasion only destroys incoming (20,000 ft/sec) projectiles, it just removes the paint on mildly supersonic (1,100+ ft/sec) projectiles, i.e. outgoing missiles in the flyout phase.

Of course, this plan of action requires groundbursting your own land, which may not be approved by TPTB; or the geologic features that make an ICBM field attractive may prohibit this; along with the fact that the ground wave may destroy/damage your own silos...

But as I recall, Stuart talked about someone proposing spikes to impale incoming MIRVs set to groundburst, which led people to look the other way around, it's the tip that destroys the RV, not the spike; so use explosives to throw shrapnel into the air to impale the incoming RVs.

That may have come out of a Red Team review for using Defensive NUDET Dust Clouds.
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jemhouston
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Re: Plotting out WWIII: It's Really HARD

Post by jemhouston »

Back in the 80s, Jerry Pournelle among others looked the BMD. The nuclear dust cloud to protect ICBM silos was one of the ideas they came up with.
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Re: Plotting out WWIII: It's Really HARD

Post by Nik_SpeakerToCats »

I... I think I need a really big mug of 'Builders Tea' after reading this thread.

( BT is like watch-keeper's 'coffee', but 'Dry-Foot'... )
If you cannot see the wood for the trees, deploy LIDAR.
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Re: Plotting out WWIII: It's Really HARD

Post by Craiglxviii »

MKSheppard wrote: Mon Apr 21, 2025 11:29 am
Craiglxviii wrote: Mon Apr 21, 2025 10:10 am Ehhhmmm wasn’t there some data uncovered here- it may have been on the last iteration of this board, toward the end- on the inability of Soviet SLBMs to fly depressed-trajectory?

I seem to recall, their electronics could only handle ambient temperatures of up to c.55 C (may be off, but it was VERY low vs the 70-80 C of Western kit) and that the submarines themselves possessed inadequate computing power to calculate the depressed trajectory solutions.
That was from me. :D

Thanks for reminding me of that.

BTW, I just had a shower thought.

If Dust Clouds from NUDETS can degrade/destroy/make inaccurate incoming RVs; why not make your own dust cloud from a 1 MT nuke buried in the center of your ICBM field? Dust cloud abrasion only destroys incoming (20,000 ft/sec) projectiles, it just removes the paint on mildly supersonic (1,100+ ft/sec) projectiles, i.e. outgoing missiles in the flyout phase.

Of course, this plan of action requires groundbursting your own land, which may not be approved by TPTB; or the geologic features that make an ICBM field attractive may prohibit this; along with the fact that the ground wave may destroy/damage your own silos...

But as I recall, Stuart talked about someone proposing spikes to impale incoming MIRVs set to groundburst, which led people to look the other way around, it's the tip that destroys the RV, not the spike; so use explosives to throw shrapnel into the air to impale the incoming RVs.

That may have come out of a Red Team review for using Defensive NUDET Dust Clouds.
Sneaky, sir, very sneaky.

I have it in one of my reference books but there was a 1960-70s (iirc) British proposal for a giant shotgun-based ABM system…
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Re: Plotting out WWIII: It's Really HARD

Post by MikeKozlowski »

Craiglxviii wrote: Mon Apr 21, 2025 2:17 pm
MKSheppard wrote: Mon Apr 21, 2025 11:29 am
Craiglxviii wrote: Mon Apr 21, 2025 10:10 am Ehhhmmm wasn’t there some data uncovered here- it may have been on the last iteration of this board, toward the end- on the inability of Soviet SLBMs to fly depressed-trajectory?

I seem to recall, their electronics could only handle ambient temperatures of up to c.55 C (may be off, but it was VERY low vs the 70-80 C of Western kit) and that the submarines themselves possessed inadequate computing power to calculate the depressed trajectory solutions.
That was from me. :D

Thanks for reminding me of that.

BTW, I just had a shower thought.

If Dust Clouds from NUDETS can degrade/destroy/make inaccurate incoming RVs; why not make your own dust cloud from a 1 MT nuke buried in the center of your ICBM field? Dust cloud abrasion only destroys incoming (20,000 ft/sec) projectiles, it just removes the paint on mildly supersonic (1,100+ ft/sec) projectiles, i.e. outgoing missiles in the flyout phase.

Of course, this plan of action requires groundbursting your own land, which may not be approved by TPTB; or the geologic features that make an ICBM field attractive may prohibit this; along with the fact that the ground wave may destroy/damage your own silos...

But as I recall, Stuart talked about someone proposing spikes to impale incoming MIRVs set to groundburst, which led people to look the other way around, it's the tip that destroys the RV, not the spike; so use explosives to throw shrapnel into the air to impale the incoming RVs.

That may have come out of a Red Team review for using Defensive NUDET Dust Clouds.
Sneaky, sir, very sneaky.

I have it in one of my reference books but there was a 1960-70s (iirc) British proposal for a giant shotgun-based ABM system…
...Code name Project PURDEY.

Mike
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Re: Plotting out WWIII: It's Really HARD

Post by Craiglxviii »

MikeKozlowski wrote: Mon Apr 21, 2025 2:27 pm
Craiglxviii wrote: Mon Apr 21, 2025 2:17 pm
MKSheppard wrote: Mon Apr 21, 2025 11:29 am

That was from me. :D

Thanks for reminding me of that.

BTW, I just had a shower thought.

If Dust Clouds from NUDETS can degrade/destroy/make inaccurate incoming RVs; why not make your own dust cloud from a 1 MT nuke buried in the center of your ICBM field? Dust cloud abrasion only destroys incoming (20,000 ft/sec) projectiles, it just removes the paint on mildly supersonic (1,100+ ft/sec) projectiles, i.e. outgoing missiles in the flyout phase.

Of course, this plan of action requires groundbursting your own land, which may not be approved by TPTB; or the geologic features that make an ICBM field attractive may prohibit this; along with the fact that the ground wave may destroy/damage your own silos...

But as I recall, Stuart talked about someone proposing spikes to impale incoming MIRVs set to groundburst, which led people to look the other way around, it's the tip that destroys the RV, not the spike; so use explosives to throw shrapnel into the air to impale the incoming RVs.

That may have come out of a Red Team review for using Defensive NUDET Dust Clouds.
Sneaky, sir, very sneaky.

I have it in one of my reference books but there was a 1960-70s (iirc) British proposal for a giant shotgun-based ABM system…
...Code name Project PURDEY.

Mike
Don’t give BAE any more excuses to gild the lily!!!

Edit. It’s in Chris Gibson’s book “Battle Flight”, which of course I now cannot find.

There were also BAC design studies on radio-controlled drone interceptors carrying air-launched ABM missiles. Straight out of Thunderbirds.
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Re: Plotting out WWIII: It's Really HARD

Post by MKSheppard »

Lukexcom wrote: Mon Apr 21, 2025 3:13 amAssuming a late 1980s OOB and weapons stockpile, that is. I have no idea how viable this would be with a 2025 OOB and our relatively small stockpile.
That's a major point that needs to be made about planning out nuclear wars.

What work(ed) back in 1955 wouldn't work in 1960, 1970 or 1980.

To elaborate further, the late John H. Rubel wrote a short book titled "Doomsday Delayed: USAF Strategic Weapons Doctrine and SIOP-62" -- Rubel was present at the infamous meeting in Omaha with General Power where Power yelled "Restraint? The idea is to kill them!"

Rubel earlier had been a systems analyst who was helping out either (or both) the late Eisenhower Administration and the Early JFK Administration and one of his jobs was to analyze the ORIGINAL Minuteman I weapons system.

Per Rubel, MMI had only TWO modes of operation:

Salvo Launch: Near simultaneous launch of all missiles in a squadron (all 50!!!) as close as the accuracy of switches and relays allowed.

Ripple Launch: The user could preset a desired interval in time and the missiles would launch sequentially; i.e. 10 second Ripple, Missile #1 goes up at 10 seconds, Missile #2 at 20 seconds, and so on.

In either modes; you could not abort the launch once it was committed -- this wasn't a problem with Salvo; since they'd all be gone in about 1-2 seconds. But if you were doing a ripple launch and had launched 20 missiles; and you decided that you didn't need to launch any more, you'd be unable to stop the launches of the remaining thirty missiles.

Rubel also pointed out that while DOD requirements were for 20 squadrons of fifty missiles (1,000), CINCSAC Power wanted 200 squadrons (10,000) all configured that way -- push the button, you get an entire-squadron level wargasm as your minimum increment of violence; there are accounts of Power asking JFK at a meet and greet at Vandenberg AFB following a test ICBM launch about that; only for JFK to go: "Bob [McNamara], we're not getting that many are we?"

"No, sir."

Other points to be made about the early Minuteman design was that there was a "delay clock" in the design -- to enable launch of that squadron's missiles if all other LCCs were destroyed or immobilized by acting as a virtual "second LCC".

The Clock's default setting was 58 minutes, but it could go as long as six hours.

Why six hours?

Because that's when the emergency generators in the silos and LCCs would run out of fuel (presumably commercial power would be destroyed or inoperable shortly after WW3 began).

Amusingly the clock could also be set to ZERO; as in a single LCC with two men could command the launch of all 50 MM if the stars aligned. This is why systems analysis is so important in early design definition.
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Re: Plotting out WWIII: It's Really HARD

Post by MKSheppard »

Here are the formerly SECRET figures for US ICBMs circa 1975 from "RAND R-1754-PR The U.S. ICBM Force: Current Issues and Future Options (U)"(October 1975)

https://generalstaff.org/WW3/Docs/RAND/ ... T-1975.htm

https://generalstaff.org/WW3/Docs/RAND/ ... T-1975.pdf

===========================
LGM-25C Titan II
0.8 Weapon System Reliability
4300 ft (1310m) CEP
6200 n.mi NRE range with Mk 6 RV (7,500 lb)
40P6 ( PSI) Silo Hardness
44P6 ( PSI) LCF Hardness
RV Radar Cross Section = 1.1 to 2.9 m2 at 4300 to 153 MHz and 0-40° aspect.
6 midcourse decoys or 8 terminal decoys spaced 12 n.mi apart. 200 n.mi chaff train.

Target coverage of Soviet ICBMs, IRBMs, MRBMs, bomber bases, bomber staging areas, fighter bases, and major population centers for Mk 6 RV (7500 lb)

390 SMW (Davis-Monthan, AZ): 91%
381 SMW (McConnell, KS): 100%
308 SMW (Little Rock, AR): 99%

NOTE: Titan II can throw at either extreme:

10,300 lb to 5000 n.mi
or
7,400 lb to 7000 n.mi

=========================

LGM-30F Minuteman II

0.87 Weapon System Reliability
2800 ft (853m) CEP at 1965 IOC
2200 ft (670m) CEP as of 1975
1800 ft (548m) CEP foreseen thru projected improvements
6700 n.mi NRE range with Mk 11C RV and Mk 1A Pen Aids

300 PSI Silo Hardness (original)
1000 PSI Silo Hardness "By 1979"

Support Facilities (Generators) hardened; 9 weeks endurance.

8 Target capability
Selective launch capability
All-Azimuth Launch Capability
Time on Target Control
100 War Plan Options
ALCC (Airborne Launch Control Center) Capability of remote launch

RV Radar Cross Section ≈ 0.0015 to 0.06 m2 at 4300 to 153 MHz and 0-40° aspect.
400 n.mi chaff train, nine 35 n.mi clouds spaced 50 n.mi apart.

Target coverage of Soviet ICBMs, IRBMs, MRBMs, bomber bases, bomber staging areas, fighter bases, and major population centers for Mk 11C RV (830 lb + PenAids)

All Wings (II Ellsworth, IV Whiteman and I Malmstrom) achieve 100% target coverage.

NOTE: Minuteman II can throw at either extreme:

1600 lb to 5000 n.mi
or
1200 lb to 7000 n.mi

That's a 400~ lb difference; shows you just how sensitive later solid fuelled ICBMs are to payload margin being eaten up with hardening, penaids, chaff clouds, controlled fragmentation, etc.

=========================

LGM-30G Minuteman III
0.85 Weapon System Reliability
1400 ft (426.7m) CEP at 1970 IOC
1000 ft (304.8m) CEP as of 1975
600 ft (182m) CEP foreseen thru projected improvements

300 PSI Silo Hardness (original)
1000 PSI Silo Hardness "By 1977"

3 sets of 3 targets

RV Radar Cross Section = 0.005 to 0.8 m2 at 4300 to 153 MHz and 0-30° aspect.
Chaff clouds are spaced 15 n.mi apart

------------------------
MIRV Bus Data:

Shroud = 200 lb
3 x RVs = 1050 lbs
Chaff = 210 lbs
Bus Propellant: 257 lb
Bus Dry Mass: 348 lb
Total Bus Mass: 2065 lb

Post Boost Vehicle ΔV = 1250 ft/sec (381 m/s)
Post Boost ISP = 282 seconds
Post Boost Vehicle Burn Time = 440 sec (230 at max thrust)
Post Boost Vehicle Thrust (Axial): 316 lbf
Post Boost Vehicle Thrust (Pitch): 22.6 lbf
Post Boost Vehicle Thrust (Yaw): 22.6 lbf
Post Boost Vehicle Thrust (Roll): 18.6 lbf

Max MIRV footprint = 300 x 900 n.mi

-----------------------

There are multiple MIRV configurations all based on the Mk 12 Mod 3 which weighed 350 lb:

A2 (No Chaff, 2 x RVs)
--6,030 n.mi range for RV1
--7,760 n.mi range for RV2

A3 (No Chaff, 3 x RVs)
--5,030 n.mi range for RV1
--5,650 n.mi range for RV2
--6,270 n.mi range for RV3

B2 (16 x Chaff Clouds, 2 x RVs)
--5,570 n.mi range for RV1
--5,620 n.mi range for RV2

B3 (16 x Chaff Clouds, 3 x RVs)
--4,430 n.mi range for RV1
--4,520 n.mi range for RV2
--4,600 n.mi range for RV3

You can see how the first RV doesn't lose *that* much range in a chaff/no chaff situation; but it's the other RVs on the payload bus that suffer horribly.

Overall; Minuteman III payload to range was:

2150 lb to 5000 n.mi
or
1760 lb to 6500 n.mi

About a 390 lb difference between the two.

Target coverage of Soviet ICBMs, IRBMs, MRBMs, bomber bases, bomber staging areas, fighter bases, and major population centers:

Wing I (Malmstrom, MT):
64% with Chaff + 2 x RVs

Wing III (Minot, SD):
99% with Chaff + 2 x RVs
67% with Chaff + 3 x RVs

Wing V (F.E. Warren WY):
91% with Chaff + 2 x RVs

Wing VI (Grand Forks, ND):
67% with Chaff + 3 x RVs

============================================
Precedessor ICBM Parameters:
=============================================

LGM-30A Minuteman IA (1962)
Mark 5 Soft RV
5000 ft (1524m) CEP:
100 PSI Silo, soft support facilities
6 hours battery power
1 target

LGM-30B Minuteman IB (1963)
Mk 11 Soft RV
300 PSI Silo
2 targets

===================================

The improvement of "modern" RVs with Minuteman was:

Mk 11 (Soft) RV IOC 1963
Mk 11A (Blast Hardened) RV IOC 1965
Mk 11B (EMP Hardened) RV IOC 1965
Mk 11C (X-Ray Hard) RV IOC 1968
Mk 12 (Proof to all above) RV IOC 1970

Likewise, the ground support structures were vastly improved -- the original silo hardness was about 300 PSI; this was incrementally upgraded to a goal of 2000 PSI by 1979, with the sequencing being:

Wing 2 (by 1975)
Wing 5 (by 1975)
Wing 3
Wing 6 (by 1979)
Wing 1
Wing 4

Concurrent with silo upgrading was the installation of the Command Data Buffer (CDB) with Minuteman III. This upgrade reduced the time to change targets; the differences being:

Individual Missile, Individual Target: 24 hours to 36 minutes

Entire Minuteman III Force: 45 days to 10 hours.

The schedule for CDB was:

Wing 5 (1975)
Wing 3 (1976)
Wing 6 + Squadron 1 of Wing I (1977)

Regarding the CDB and how retargeting actually worked; there is this note:
One question is the Soviet capability to compensate for missiles which fail at launch or during flight. The reprogramming of additional missiles for boost phase unreliabilities is technically feasible, given provisions for the detection of boost failures and for rapid retargeting.

[Reprogramming denotes the launch of backup missiles against aimpoints targeted by failed missiles, generally requiring a capability to rapidly insert target data and compute guidance parameters for the reserve missiles.]

Postboost and terminal unreliabilities are generally thought not to be reprogrammable. The problems of coordinating missiles reprogrammed to compensate for boost failures into a single attack wave are believed to be other than trivial.
There's also this lede:
Until recently, typical survivability analyses for the U.S. ICBM force assumed that the number of weapons usable is limited only by Soviet resources (throw weight) and technology (multiple vehicles and high yield efficiencies).

As a consequence, it was not uncommon for the analyses to assume that the Soviet missiles were highly MIRVed and that the attack on each U.S. ICBM silo involved two, three, or more RVs.

Such assumptions have now come under criticism as being inconsistent with the limitations of weapon interactions (dust and fratricide) in mounting an actual large-scale attack upon arrays of hard point targets.
If only one RV is targeted on each silo, all adjacent weapons would have to arrive within a span of 10 to 18 sec to avoid interference effects.

While this degree of attack control is generally believed to be technically feasible, backup reprogramming missiles after boost failures within this time window appears to be a significant challenge: To reprogram after late failures in the boost phase, the reprogrammed missiles may be launch-delayed by as much as six minutes with respect to the programmed attack, and this difference would have to be recovered in the flight times of the backup missiles.

A combination of means has been proposed for this control of flight times: (a) launching the attack from the longest-range sites and reprogramming backup missiles from shorter-range sites, and (b) launching the attack on lofted trajectories and reprogramming backups with depressed trajectories.
The immediate postattack availability of undamaged elements of the U.S. ICBM force does not appear to be at issue. The force routinely operates on commercial power with diesel-electric generators providing primary backup. Temporary emergency power is available from batteries. The batteries are located within the missile silos and are adequate for missile launch operations if executed within a few hours after the loss of commercial power or diesel-electric backup. (The upgrading of the Minuteman silos increases the battery capacity from 6 to 20 hr.)

For longer periods, the launch availability of the ICBM force in a severely degraded postattack environment is problematical. First, there is some uncertainty as to the survivability of the backup diesel-electric generators. For the Titan, these generators are within the silos, but fuel for much more than three days is not. For the Minuteman, the generators are all outside the silos, variously protected (they are underground but soft for Wings I and II, hardened to 25 psi for Wings III, IV, and V, and to 300 psi for Wing VI).

Second, there have been reliability problems both in starting the backup generators and in switching from generator to battery power. In spite of the good reputation of diesel-electric equipment for high reliability, this subsystem has been one of the most troublesome in the Minuteman system.

Third, there is some concern about the ability to carry out essential maintenance activities in severe post-attack environments. While noncritical maintenance is indicated and performed frequently, critical maintenance to restore the launch capability of a Minuteman silo is required, on the average, about once every 6 or 7 weeks. (Most of the critical maintenance for Minuteman is in subsystems other than guidance; the mean time between failures (MTBF) for guidance systems is on the order of 5 to 6 months.)

The direct effects of a large-scale attack are likely to include the destruction or damage of substantial quantities of maintenance resources; and the indirect effects (e.g., fallout and transportation damage) might delay access to the silos. The tunnel access to the Titan silos from the launch control facility overcomes part of the problem, as long as the required maintenance tasks are within the resources of the launch crew.
The extent of these concerns for the enduring availability of the ICBM force is illustrated by the following exemplary calculation:

An attack by 1,000 reliable RVs, each having a yield of 1.2 MT and a CEP of 3,500 ft, upon the Minuteman force is estimated to leave about 840 silos surviving.

On battery power, these 840 would remain operable for less than a day.

The same attack is estimated to destroy all but about 165 diesel-electric generators as a collateral effect.

If 75 percent of the surviving generators are successfully started and switched over to supply power, about 125 silos would remain operable, after the first day following the attack.

If the MTBF for critical maintenance is taken at 40 days, the number of alert missiles would drop below 100 within ten days, and below 60 within a month.
While the numbers are arguable, the calculation does indicate that attacks incapable of destroying more than a modest fraction of the ICBM force might severely jeopardize the enduring availability of the force.
It gets worse.

In

Table 3 DAMAGE PROBABILITIES FOR RELIABLE ICBMs AGAINST REPRESENTATIVE HARD TARGETS (U)

the following probabilities are given:

Titan II (4300 ft CEP)
0.58 vs 33P2 (Weapon Storage Sites
0.55 vs 37P6 (SS-9 silos)
0.18 vs 48P6 (New ICBM Silos)
0.13 vs 51P6 (Some Weapon Storage Sites/Control Centers)

Minuteman II (2200 ft CEP)
0.58 vs 33P2 (Weapon Storage Sites)
0.49 vs 37P6 (SS-9 silos)
0.16 vs 48P6 (New ICBM Silos)
0.11 vs 51P6 (Some Weapon Storage Sites/Control Centers)

Minuteman III (1000 ft CEP)

33P2 (Weapon Storage Sites)
---0.65 (1 x RV)
---0.88 (2 x RV)
---0.96 (3 x RV)

37P6 (SS-9 silos)
---0.55 (1 x RV)
---0.80 (2 x RV)
---0.91 (3 x RV)

48P6 (New ICBM Silos)
---0.18 (1 x RV)
---0.33 (2 x RV)
---0.46 (3 x RV)

51P6 (Some Weapon Storage Sites/Control Centers)
---0.12 (1 x RV)
---0.22 (2 x RV)
---0.32 (3 x RV)

Reading further; I find official confirmation of my previous talk about SSBN vulnerability:
Now generally called Limited Strategic Operations (LSOs), the concept involves the controlled use or the threat of use of limited numbers of strategic nuclear weapons against selected civil or military targets. The background context is rather ill-defined at this time: Some view LSOs as political/coercive events designed to alter the target nation’s crisis situation assessment and decision processes; others see it as escalation in an ongoing conventional conflict, possibly leading to general nuclear war.

...

In assessing the attractiveness of ICBMs over SLBMs for LSOs, the case may rest on other than the widely appreciated differences in delivery accuracy or assured two-way command communication.

"It is not primarily accuracy.... A submarine like the Poseidon is hard to adapt to [LSOs] because you have so many MIRVs permissible and so many missiles per boat. As soon as you fire, you expose the boat. Consequently, the ICBM is a far more useful instrument for this kind of strategy than is the SLBM."

Statement by Secretary of Defense James R. Schlesinger in a hearing before the Subcommittee on Arms Control, International Law and Organization of the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations, March 4, 1974.
Ah here we are... collateral damage:
One estimate of the fallout fatalities from an attack with one surface-burst 5-MT weapon upon each of 1,223 sites associated with the U.S. ICBM force is about 13 percent of the U.S. population, assuming negligible shelter protection.

...

One important dimension in these estimates is the weight of the attack; another is the intent of the attacker: whether or not he takes pains to minimize collateral damage. Still another dimension is the degree of fallout protection assumed. For example, an attack with 1-MT weapons, detonated at or near optimum height of burst, upon the bulk of the U.S. ICBM force--the 850 Minuteman missiles in the remote northern CONUS sites--might result in fatalities as low as 0.15 percent of the U.S. population, assuming maximum utilization of existing civil defense facilities.

...

For attacks on the strategic bomber force, the principal potential for collateral damage is the casualties due to prompt effects. An attack with a single air-burst 1-MT weapon over each of 45 SAC air bases has been estimated to result in fatalities due to prompt effects of about 0.15 percent of the U.S. population. But an attack with twice as many 1-MT weapons on 93 air bases (including the dispersal bases) has also been estimated to result in fatalities of 10 percent, or if the weapons were surface burst (to get the runways), between 7 and 25 percent, depending upon the winds. Thus, the estimates of collateral damage for attacks upon the U.S. ICBM or bomber forces are comparable both in level and variability.

If 2-MT weapons were surface-burst at each of seven submarine berthing sites, the fatalities due to prompt effects are estimated at about 0.1 percent. If the attacks were limited to a single, 1-MT weapon on each of the two CONUS bases for missile submarines, the fatalities have been estimated to be on the order of 0.05 percent of the U.S. population.
Hahahah, they even mentioned my "nuclear self defense"
Environmental Defense Systems.

"Environmental defense" has been used to describe the (proposed) use of deliberately timed nuclear detonations in the defended area to generate nuclear clouds which might serve as high-altitude protective covers over the area. A related concept is to use the high-intensity neutron flux shields from relatively small-yield nuclear detonations as point defense systems. Such proposals have been considered by some as potential emergency defense options for the Minuteman.

The envisaged nuclear clouds would consist of dust, rain, and water particles forming an erosive environment that could destroy or degrade the accuracy of incoming RVs, To be most effective, the clouds would be formed by heavy-yield (5 MT or higher) surface or shallow-buried bursts. For Minuteman silo deployment densities, one such burst is estimated to protect about 7 silos at 5 min and about 13 silos at 10 min after detonation by creating an environment lethal to SS-9 Mod 4 RVs. Hence, a few defense detonations per wing could protect a sizable number of Minuteman silos against massive attacks of nearly simultaneously arriving RVs.

Environmental defense concepts could be developed to a point that would permit their rapid deployment in the event of some sudden and unexpected deterioration in the U.S. strategic deterrence posture. In this sense, it might serve as a bold and inexpensive insurance policy to buy time for other improvements in the strategic forces. The obvious major disadvantage is the requirement to detonate a substantial "friendly" megatonnage within the northern regions of the U.S., a prospect fraught with strong political and emotional overtones (although the collateral effects from clean defense weapons might compare very favorably with those from massive attacks on undefended targets). In addition, environmental defense would be critically dependent upon high-confidence attack assessment systems because of detonation timing problems and limited shield endurance, unless the shield is renewed by additional detonations.
BTW, in the table:

OPTIONS FOR IMPROVED ICBM ACCURACY

They put down the following CEPs @ 5500 n.mi for MaRVs:

GPS to Re-Entry: 70 to 150 ft CEP
TERCOM Guidance: 200-400 ft CEP
Radar Area Map: 80-150 ft CEP
Optical Guidance: 30-80 ft CEP

They pointed out that while ground-based radio assistance systems could work for Post-Boost and Late Mid-Course assistance; only GPS satellites would be able to reach MaRVs to enable trajectory corrections during re-entry.

Presumably, this is because GPS is a space based signal and would be going downwards, into the narrow window above a RV during re-entry.

(the same principle was shown with STARLINK on the recent Starship flights enabling SpaceX to maintain HD video of re-entry all the way down......)

Ohoho:
There have been several proposals to use MIRV buses as platforms for sensors and as data links to give the ICBM-based system a near-real-time reconnaissance capability for bomb damage assessment or for terminal guidance of its MaRVs or both.

The concept envisages a high-resolution , synthetic-aperture, side-looking radar for all-weather target detection, data transmission via bus-based data links or special data relay vehicles, and central data processing in CONUS or aboard a C³ aircraft.

An important aspect of this concept is its potential use for "recce strike" missions against either fixed or mobile targets. Surviving elements of a fixed target set could be recognized and attacked.

Mobile targets, such as land-mobile ICBMs or naval vessels, could be attacked given prior knowledge of their approximate positions.
Another reason for SSBNs is given:
Another special role is that of providing a reserve of strategic nuclear weapons that can be held inviolable and available for a long time in general nuclear war.

While the abilities of U.S. strategic offensive forces to survive in the transattack period have been widely analyzed and discussed, far less attention has been given to the long-term survival of strategic forces in a seriously degraded postattack environment.

Because of their relative autonomy during extended patrol operations, nuclear-powered submarines offer attractive survival characteristics (with the possible exception of assured two-way command communications) for periods of several months into a postattack period. Beyond that time, the breakdown of logistic support would probably limit the availability of SLBMs.
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MKSheppard
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Re: Plotting out WWIII: It's Really HARD

Post by MKSheppard »

I just realized why ABM systems are so important. Consider this case of early Minuteman 3:
Target coverage of Soviet ICBMs, IRBMs, MRBMs, bomber bases, bomber staging areas, fighter bases, and major population centers:

Wing I (Malmstrom, MT):
64% with Chaff + 2 x RVs

Wing III (Minot, SD):
99% with Chaff + 2 x RVs
67% with Chaff + 3 x RVs

Wing V (F.E. Warren WY):
91% with Chaff + 2 x RVs

Wing VI (Grand Forks, ND):
67% with Chaff + 3 x RVs
We know that the chaff (210 lb) was almost as heavy as a RV (350 lb) -- consider these two pairs of munitions loadings and how very close they are:

B2 (16 x Chaff Clouds, 2 x RVs)
--5,570 n.mi range for RV1
--5,620 n.mi range for RV2

A3 (No Chaff, 3 x RVs)
--5,030 n.mi range for RV1
--5,650 n.mi range for RV2
--6,270 n.mi range for RV3

Essentially, it comes down to this:

Nationwide Soviet ABM: 800 MM3 = 1600 RV = 65% of Soviet Targets Covered.

Moscow Soviet ABM: 800 MM3 = 2300 RV = 700 missiles can cover 95% targets, 100~ for Moscow cover ~65% of Soviet Targets

No Soviet ABM: 800 MM3 = 2400 RV = 95~% of Soviet Targets Covered.

That dynamic explains why the "one site" was put in and agreed upon; because it meant that only 100~ missiles would have to be degraded; and those missiles would be going to target areas that already needed to be covered anyway (Moscow for the US and Great Plains for USSR)

EDIT: It gets a bit worse if you assume that in order to penetrate a "modern" radar, you have to do both chaff + hard decoys.

A long time ago (early 2000s) the US did a decoy test to help design the current GMD using a MM3 or equivalent. One of the MIRV locations on that MM3 was replaced with a hard decoy dispenser -- it was multiple hard shell decoys stacked on top of each other like dixie cups.

EDIT II: Said "dixie cup" stacking of hard decoys only works against simple ground based radars; it fails against more modern discrimination techniques:

1.) because these hard decoys have to be hollow (got to stack them like dixie cups), they leave a re-entry wake that's easily discernable from the real thing; in addition to slowing down faster than the heavier (real) decoys.

2.) If you've got space based sensors, you can just look down, similar to GPS signals penetrating re-entry plasma sheaths, and see that the decoy is a hollow dixie cup.

Now; you can solve these, but they're a lot more complicated -- some sort of pop up hard cover or inflatable soft cover to fix the wake problem is more mass + complications to get working each time.
Poohbah
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Re: Plotting out WWIII: It's Really HARD

Post by Poohbah »

I've got a perfect decoy. It weighs the same as an RV, has the same ballistic coefficient, and it generates nuclear yield at end of flight.
Rocket J Squrriel
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Re: Plotting out WWIII: It's Really HARD

Post by Rocket J Squrriel »

Poohbah wrote: Thu Apr 24, 2025 2:46 am I've got a perfect decoy. It weighs the same as an RV, has the same ballistic coefficient, and it generates nuclear yield at end of flight.
I think you could swing that past congress and they would approve it. :lol:
MikeKozlowski
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Re: Plotting out WWIII: It's Really HARD

Post by MikeKozlowski »

Poohbah wrote: Thu Apr 24, 2025 2:46 am I've got a perfect decoy. It weighs the same as an RV, has the same ballistic coefficient, and it generates nuclear yield at end of flight.
Poohbah,

...That's so crazy, it might just WORK!

Mike
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MKSheppard
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Re: Plotting out WWIII: It's Really HARD

Post by MKSheppard »

https://bpb-us-e1.wpmucdn.com/wordpress ... lation.pdf
In conjunction with the slight deceleration of Stage III, separation springs in the RV mechanical system pushed the RV away from the NS10 guidance set. From this point - 272 nautical miles downrange from the LF, and an altitude of 148 nautical miles - the Mk11 began its long ballistic toss through space.

...

Having only a slightly different velocity vector, Stage III and the guidance set followed the RV fairly closely throughout the long toss.

Those Minuteman IBs that were fitted with the Mk11A operated differently, having a spacer containing small rocket motors mounted atop the guidance set. Three to five seconds after electrical disconnect, a tumbler motor fired perpendicular to the Stage III centerline, imparting a rotation rate to the Stage III/NS10 assembly.

Following another programmed time interval, a retro motor was fired. This sequence generated an almost unpredictable change in the flight path and thus randomized the position of Stage III relative to the Mk11A, reducing the problem of the third stage serving as a radar beacon for the target's defenses.
The source for that is Reentry Vehicle Development Leading to the Minuteman Avco Mark 5 and 1 – David K. Stumpf in the Fall 2017 Airpower History:

https://afhistory.org/airpowerhistory/A ... 7_fall.pdf
The Mark 11 series reentry vehicle had an operational requirement for a reduced radar cross section during the exoatmospheric portion of its trajectory

...

While the Mark 4 and 5 tumbled at first during reentry and thus provided a large radar return, the Mark 11 was spin stabilized so as to present a reduced radar return for as long as possible.

The Mark 11 deployed from the third stage with only a slight increase in velocity so the third stage served almost like a radar beacon for Soviet ABM systems.

...

For the Mark 11A and 11B, Avco developed a retro rocket spacer that had ten small thrusters which fired in pairs to provide a random velocity to the third stage. Before firing the retro rocket thrusters, a tumbler motor fired perpendicular to the centerline of the third stage to impart a rotation rate.

This combination randomized the third stage position relative to the reentry vehicle and thus reduced the problem of the third stage serving as a radar beacon.
RCS values for different RVs was, per SECRET/RD RAND R-1754-PR The U.S. ICBM Force: Current Issues and Future Options (October 1975):

Titan II Mk 6 Mod 3: 1.1 to 2.9m2 at 4300 to 153 MHz and 0-40° aspect.

MM2 Mk 11C: 0.0015 to 0.6m2 at 4300 to 153 MHz and 0-40° aspect.

MM3 Mk 12 Mod 3: 0.005 to 0.8m2 at 4300 to 153 MHz and 0-30° aspect.

Per various figures

http://www.wslfweb.org/docs/roadmap/irm ... /parcs.htm

https://mostlymissiledefense.com/2012/0 ... l-12-2012/

AN/FPQ-16 PARCS (aka Safeguard PAR) is:

420-450 MHz (UHF)
14.3 MW Peak, 715 kW average powers
140 degree azimuth detection volume
24 cm (Basketball-sized) targets @ 2000 miles [3200 km] detection

Assuming the target is a sphere, a 12 cm (0.12m) radius sphere would have a rough RCS of 0.045m2.

Furthermore, a Minuteman III Post Boost Vehicle (PBV) is about 4.3 ft (1.31m) in diameter and about 1.1 ft high for the guidance section and 1.4 ft high for the propulsion section (2.5 ft / 0.762 m).

Simple RCS estimates for the PBV:

Head on PBV (0.7 x 0.7m Flat Plate @ 425 MHz): 6.07 m2
Side on PBV (Cylinder @ 425 MHz): 0.62m2

Extrapolating with the Radar Equation we get Safeguard PAR vs:

MM3 Post-Boost Vehicle (Head): 10900 km [6772 mi]
MM3 Post-Boost Vehicle (Side): 6100~ km [3790 mi]

Titan 2 Mk 6 (Head): 7100 km [4411 mi]
Titan 2 Mk 6 (Side): 9000 km [5592 mi]

Minuteman II Mk 11C (Head): 1300 km [807 mi]
Minuteman II Mk 11C (Side): 6100 km [3790 mi]

Minuteman III Mk 12 (Head): 1850 km [1149 mi]
Minuteman III Mk 12 (Side): 6570 km [4082 mi]

Some things that shake out from this thought experiment:

It clearly shows how ABM is a multiplicative effort -- if all you have is a single radar (PAR A) in South Dakota; low RCS MIRVs aimed directly at it won't be detected until 800~ miles out.

But if you have a second radar (PAR B) 500-700 miles away; that PAR gets the side view of the low-RCS MIRVs headed to PAR A; and can get 3000+ mile ranges on them, and in turn tell PAR A about this.

Furthermore, this shows how virtual attrition of an ABM system impacts enemy MIRV patterning.

MIRV systems have very low energies -- Minuteman III's was, per RAND R-1754-PR:
Shroud = 200 lb
3 x RVs = 1050 lbs
Chaff = 210 lbs
Bus Propellant: 257 lb
Bus Dry Mass: 348 lb
Total Bus Mass: 2065 lb

Post Boost Vehicle ΔV = 1250 ft/sec (381 m/s)
Post Boost ISP = 282 seconds
Post Boost Vehicle Burn Time = 440 sec (230 at max thrust)
Post Boost Vehicle Thrust (Axial): 316 lbf
Post Boost Vehicle Thrust (Pitch): 22.6 lbf
Post Boost Vehicle Thrust (Yaw): 22.6 lbf
Post Boost Vehicle Thrust (Roll): 18.6 lbf

Max MIRV footprint = 300 x 900 n.mi
Please note that this is for a hypergolic liquid fuelled PBV. Polaris/Poseidon/Trident SLBMs use solid propellant gas generators (SPGG); because the USN is deathly afraid of putting hypergols to sea; and as a result, they've got much lower ISPs.

Rubber banding the MM3 PBV down to 182-200 ISP (a reasonable guess for a SPGG system), USN Post Boost Vehicles are around 800-890 ft/sec (243.8 - 271.2 m/s) ΔV.

This has implications, particularly if the system requires post-release back-off manuvers following each MIRV release to keep accuracy high.

[If you don't do 'back off' manuvers, odds are high that you hit the released MIRVs (or other objects) with rocket exhaust from the PBV.]

In the absence of any ABM system:

1.) You can dispense with chaff to increase your delta-V and footprint size.

I strongly suspect chaff was gotten rid of anyway, because there's not enough time + delta V to achieve a significant separation distance from the MIRVs and avoid the enemy from using the chaff clouds as a radar target to volume search in a conical cylindrical pattern around the chaff to find the MIRVs.

Think about it -- you've made a 'modern' low-RCS MIRV (0.0015 m2 @ 0 deg) and now you're going to surround it with radar beacons? Stealth aircraft don't dump chaff everywhere to camouflage themselves...

2.) You can keep the MIRVs on the bus as long as possible to increase accuracy via star trackers + on board INS + gravity sensors.

3.) 100% of the Bus' Delta-V is available for footprinting, course correction, and 'back-off' manuvers.

If an ABM system exists...

1.) You now have to reserve a significant amount of Delta-V for disposal of the warhead bus; as it presents a significant radar target from which an enemy could use as the basis for a volume search based off estimated post-boost performance characteristics of the post-boost vehicle -- i.e. given 'x' amount of ΔV, what radius do we have to search to find the MIRVs?

2.) Target object debussing and deployment must occur before the target complex comes over the radar horizon for enemy ABM systems; because the enemy can use a radar (or other sensors) to track the post-boost vehicle -- heavy warheads and light decoys will have different post-boost vehicle precession (wobble) rates.

A.) MIRVs must now be released as soon as possible, and thus lose the advantage of mid-course corrections from the bus.

B.) The PBV has to thrust longer to impart the higher separation velocities to each target object (MIRV/Chaff Bundle/Decoy) so that the target complex positioning is locked in before it comes within range of ABM systems -- i.e. all the MIRVs and decoys are positioned so that no one interceptor can kill multiples.

All this means MIRV bus footprints will be much smaller in an area covered by ABM; less targets will be able to be covered, in turn needing more missiles to achieve the same target coverage (on top of shootdown losses, etc).

PS -- circling back to how ABM is a multiplicative effort -- if you have a line of ABM radars, you can get views of enemy objects' wake turbulence on the offset radars with side views:

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/199 ... 006797.pdf

Thirty years ago, we pointed the following radars in the Kiernan Re-Entry Measurement System (KREMS) complex at Kwajalein:

Altair (VHF-UHF)
Tradex (L to S)
Alcor (C)
MMW (Ka)

at the following targets:

25 May 1990: Learjet 36
15 June 1990: C-5A Galaxy

And got some very intersting data regarding tracking wakes (look at that PDF).

Now, given that a C-5 cruises at around 540 MPH (792 ft/sec)...what does this mean for enemy objects entering the atmosphere at 24,000+ ft/sec, some thirty times faster than said aircraft?

If you want moderately light 'heavy' decoys, the "cheapest" way of doing it is to stack them on top of small MIRVs dixie-cup style.

We tested the so-called Small Rigid Lightweight Replicas (SRLR) with RCT-1 (Radar Credible Target 1 back on Minuteman III Operational Test (OT) Mission GT-170GM which was way back in 1999 to test the GBR-P prototype.

https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA355732.pdf

For that mission, one of the three MIRV locations was set aside and was loaded with:

1 x SRV - Small Re-Entry Vehicle
2 x SRLR - Small Rigid Lightweight Replicas

The SRLRs were stacked on top of the SRV and were X-Band Signature matched to the SRV.

It flew a normal Minuteman III Operational Test trajectory with the following time hacks:

410 seconds after launch, the bus deploys the RCT-1 stack and backs away.

At 1050 seconds, the first SRLR is deployed from the RCT-1 stack at 1.7 m/s separation velocity

At 1200 seconds, the chaff package is deployed at 4 m/s sep velocity

At 1250 seconds, the second SRLR is released at 1.7 m/sec velocity

By 1450 seconds, there is now 340 meters separation between the targets.

At 1550 seconds, chaff release begins; using a standard aircraft chaff package (RR-170/AL) dispersing 3 million chaff pieces cut to L, C and X band lengths.

At 1700 seconds the SRV target impacts the target area.

With some crude guessing -- if everything has to be at 300+ meters separation by 300 seconds before impact, that puts it at about 1800 km [1100~ miles] from the target zone.

But the big issue is that the SRLRs are an open cone; meaning they're going to have a radar wake totally different than an actual RV with a closed cone....

Some more information on the RCT-1 stack:

https://www.sandia.gov/labnews/2001/02/ ... nse-radar/
Sandia target array helps test BMDO’s experimental national missile defense radar
BY JOHN GERMAN

FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 9, 2001

Labs engineers, together with the US Army Space and Missile Defense Command, helped the Ballistic Missile Defense Organization (BMDO) test the limits of a national missile defense radar in September by dispersing into space an array of small objects that to the radar looked something like reentry vehicles (RVs) and deployment debris heading toward Earth.“Our role was to throw out a lot of interesting stuff for the radar to look at,” says Sandia mission project manager Dan Talbert of Targets Dept.15415.The Sept. 28 flight was the second in a series of RCT (Radar-Credible Targets) tests meant to examine the capabilities of the BMDO’s most advanced X-band radar, called the Ground-Based Radar Prototype (GBR-P). The GBR-P watched Sandia’s carefully orchestrated show from Kwajalein Atoll in the Pacific.

Making a scene

A Minuteman III missile launched from Vandenberg Air Force Base carried an RV-like plat-form, called a target deployment structure (TDS),that was specially created by Sandia to disperse a grouping of targets into the night sky. During the flight, six hockey-puck-shaped objects and six croquet-ball-like objects ejected from the TDS, along with six beach ball-sized balloons and one small rigid lightweight replica —essentially a five-foot-high cone that served as an RV surrogate for the mission. Many of the 20 objects mimicked the way areal RV might appear to the radar. The BMDO then used the GBR-P to assess the credibility of each target.“The RCT-2 target complex provided objects and spatial separations not heretofore available on [national missile defense] flight tests and hence an opportunity for testing GBR-P’s acquisition,wide-band tracking, and discrimination functions on a stressing target scene,”according to a BMDO test summary.“From a radar standpoint it was a totally successful mission,” says Dan.“Our customer was delighted.”

RCT-2 tests Sandia

To create the target scene the BMDO wanted, Labs propulsion experts built from scratch and tested a new type of solid-fuel thrust motor that spun the RV up to one rotation per second and then “de spun” it back to near zero, says Dan. “We went from pencil and paper to delivering a flight-certified spin system in eight months,” he says. “It was a small miracle we were able to develop and build the system on time and that it worked so well.”In fact, he says, everything Sandia put on the RV was developed specifically for the test except the rigid light replica. The pucks and balls had never been used before, and their ejection systems were newly designed and tested on the ground.

The balloon ejectors were also a new design for the RCT-2 mission. Sandia’s machine shops created the five-foot-tall TDS out of a solid chunk of aluminum that needed a lot of internal and external precision machining, Dan says. “We were able to go from the drawings straight to the shops,” he says. “We would not have been able to deliver without an in-house precision machining capability.”Core team members included lead technician Jimmy Aldaz (15413), lead mechanical engineer Robert Brown (15414), project engineer David Foral (15415), lead electrical engineer Martin Imbert (2663), lead mechanical designer Mel Krein (15415), mechanical designer Jacky Martinez (15415), electrical systems engineer C.R.N idever (ret.), mechanical technicians Brian Pardo (15413) and John Stanalonis (15417), electrical technician Doug Pastor (2663), and Dan.About 25 other people from Centers 2500,2600, 9100, 14100, and 15400 contributed.
ABM_TDS_Structure.png
PREPARING AN RV-like platform called a target deployment structure (TDS) prior to the RCT-2 test were (left to right) Mel Krein (15415), Brian Pardo,Jim Aldaz (both 15413), and Rob Brown (15414). Target objects that look like pucks (top of TDS), balls (left side of TDS), and cannisterized balloons (right side of TDS) are visible.
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Craiglxviii
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Re: Plotting out WWIII: It's Really HARD

Post by Craiglxviii »

MikeKozlowski wrote: Mon Apr 21, 2025 2:27 pm
Craiglxviii wrote: Mon Apr 21, 2025 2:17 pm
MKSheppard wrote: Mon Apr 21, 2025 11:29 am

That was from me. :D

Thanks for reminding me of that.

BTW, I just had a shower thought.

If Dust Clouds from NUDETS can degrade/destroy/make inaccurate incoming RVs; why not make your own dust cloud from a 1 MT nuke buried in the center of your ICBM field? Dust cloud abrasion only destroys incoming (20,000 ft/sec) projectiles, it just removes the paint on mildly supersonic (1,100+ ft/sec) projectiles, i.e. outgoing missiles in the flyout phase.

Of course, this plan of action requires groundbursting your own land, which may not be approved by TPTB; or the geologic features that make an ICBM field attractive may prohibit this; along with the fact that the ground wave may destroy/damage your own silos...

But as I recall, Stuart talked about someone proposing spikes to impale incoming MIRVs set to groundburst, which led people to look the other way around, it's the tip that destroys the RV, not the spike; so use explosives to throw shrapnel into the air to impale the incoming RVs.

That may have come out of a Red Team review for using Defensive NUDET Dust Clouds.
Sneaky, sir, very sneaky.

I have it in one of my reference books but there was a 1960-70s (iirc) British proposal for a giant shotgun-based ABM system…
...Code name Project PURDEY.

Mike
I found it!!
IMG_4831.jpeg
Here we go. Project HELMET, a 9.45” gun firing 500lb shotgun rounds out to 200,000’ for an intercept 30-35 miles downrange.

YES, Gerald Bull was involved.
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MikeKozlowski
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Re: Plotting out WWIII: It's Really HARD

Post by MikeKozlowski »

Craiglxviii wrote: Tue Apr 29, 2025 5:04 pm
MikeKozlowski wrote: Mon Apr 21, 2025 2:27 pm
Craiglxviii wrote: Mon Apr 21, 2025 2:17 pm

Sneaky, sir, very sneaky.

I have it in one of my reference books but there was a 1960-70s (iirc) British proposal for a giant shotgun-based ABM system…
...Code name Project PURDEY.

Mike
I found it!!

IMG_4831.jpeg

Here we go. Project HELMET, a 9.45” gun firing 500lb shotgun rounds out to 200,000’ for an intercept 30-35 miles downrange.

YES, Gerald Bull was involved.
Craig,

I can believe Bull was part of that. But six rounds a minute? Seems like it would need to be a lot faster than that.

Mike
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