History, Politics And Current Affairs

In line with what has been rumored for some time, a contract was signed today for Sea Ceptor to be installed in the Swedish Visby class as part of the midlife refit.

Looks like a nine cell installation which should mean 36 missiles. Excellent!

Installation work should begin in late 2025 with handover of the first ship back to the navy in just over a year later.

It's both interesting as a development in Swedish military purchases and yet I cannot help but reccal how things were once meant to be.

Wasn't it BAMSE in some navalised form that was the intended system?

And surely VLS IRS-T is already in service with the Swedish Army?

And Isn't it the case the Fins chose Umkhoto and I think are now opting for C-Dome?

Zen9 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 1:43 pm It's both interesting as a development in Swedish military purchases and yet I cannot help but reccal how things were once meant to be.

Wasn't it BAMSE in some navalised form that was the intended system?

And surely VLS IRS-T is already in service with the Swedish Army?

And Isn't it the case the Fins choee Umkhoto and I think are now opting for C-Dome?

BAMSE was pushed by some circles for a while, but people in the know at the time was of the opinion that it was pretty unrealistic as an idea. The motivator was to try to secure the project by getting a bigger buy in of it. But when it was essentially cancelled for the army this evaporated.

Then Umkhonto was chosen for installation, not because it was what anyone really wanted but as a tit-for-tat buy connected to South Africa buying Gripen. This was cancelled, along with a string of other things, due to a big budget cutback.

VLS IRIS-T was bought for the army due to the then cabinet being extremely hot on both off the shelf buys and ”synergies”. IE the airforce had IRIS-T’s for the Gripens so the army had to get them too if they wanted anything at all. It wouldn’t have been the preferred choice for the role that it’s used in otherwise.

Sea Ceptor has a couple of advantages apart from its supposed excellent capability. One is that more missiles can be fit into a given space than with most other systems, which is important given the limited space available on the Visbys. The other is that it is a cold launch system, which removes potential complications with the composite hull when launching.

Micael wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 8:59 pm

Zen9 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 1:43 pm It's both interesting as a development in Swedish military purchases and yet I cannot help but reccal how things were once meant to be.

Wasn't it BAMSE in some navalised form that was the intended system?

And surely VLS IRS-T is already in service with the Swedish Army?

And Isn't it the case the Fins choee Umkhoto and I think are now opting for C-Dome?

BAMSE was pushed by some circles for a while, but people in the know at the time was of the opinion that it was pretty unrealistic as an idea. The motivator was to try to secure the project by getting a bigger buy in of it. But when it was essentially cancelled for the army this evaporated.

Then Umkhonto was chosen for installation, not because it was what anyone really wanted but as a tit-for-tat buy connected to South Africa buying Gripen. This was cancelled, along with a string of other things, due to a big budget cutback.

VLS IRIS-T was bought for the army due to the then cabinet being extremely hot on both off the shelf buys and ”synergies”. IE the airforce had IRIS-T’s for the Gripens so the army had to get them too if they wanted anything at all. It wouldn’t have been the preferred choice for the role that it’s used in otherwise.

Sea Ceptor has a couple of advantages apart from its supposed excellent capability. One is that more missiles can be fit into a given space than with most other systems, which is important given the limited space available on the Visbys. The other is that it is a cold launch system, which removes potential complications with the composite hull when launching.

To be honest I suspected as much on BAMSE at the time. I couldn't quite figure out how would work without either a new VLS booster stage or a hefty RAM style launcher.

Rather had a similar suspicion, IRS-T was also a sop to 'Europe'.

Umkhoto wasn't a bad missile, odd to not opt in for the AAM though as well. But Denel and all things South African are pretty much done. The teams are all in the UAE I think.

CAMM's big plus is sensor agnosticism. Frankly you should be able to datalink the target data from any digital source.

Zen9 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 9:40 pm

Micael wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 8:59 pm

Zen9 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 1:43 pm It's both interesting as a development in Swedish military purchases and yet I cannot help but reccal how things were once meant to be.

Wasn't it BAMSE in some navalised form that was the intended system?

And surely VLS IRS-T is already in service with the Swedish Army?

And Isn't it the case the Fins choee Umkhoto and I think are now opting for C-Dome?

BAMSE was pushed by some circles for a while, but people in the know at the time was of the opinion that it was pretty unrealistic as an idea. The motivator was to try to secure the project by getting a bigger buy in of it. But when it was essentially cancelled for the army this evaporated.

Then Umkhonto was chosen for installation, not because it was what anyone really wanted but as a tit-for-tat buy connected to South Africa buying Gripen. This was cancelled, along with a string of other things, due to a big budget cutback.

VLS IRIS-T was bought for the army due to the then cabinet being extremely hot on both off the shelf buys and ”synergies”. IE the airforce had IRIS-T’s for the Gripens so the army had to get them too if they wanted anything at all. It wouldn’t have been the preferred choice for the role that it’s used in otherwise.

Sea Ceptor has a couple of advantages apart from its supposed excellent capability. One is that more missiles can be fit into a given space than with most other systems, which is important given the limited space available on the Visbys. The other is that it is a cold launch system, which removes potential complications with the composite hull when launching.

To be honest I suspected as much on BAMSE at the time. I couldn't quite figure out how would work without either a new VLS booster stage or a hefty RAM style launcher.

Rather had a similar suspicion, IRS-T was also a sop to 'Europe'.

Umkhoto wasn't a bad missile, odd to not opt in for the AAM though as well. But Denel and all things South African are pretty much done. The teams are all in the UAE I think.

CAMM's big plus is sensor agnosticism. Frankly you should be able to datalink the target data from any digital source.

The idea for the BAMSE installation was - and you might want to sit down for this - to place the same type launcher as on the land system on an elevating mechanism that could be lowered into the hull and enclosed by hatches. Thereby maintaining the stealth profile when not in use.

Micael wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 9:51 pm

The idea for the BAMSE installation was - and you might want to sit down for this - to place the same type launcher as on the land system on an elevating mechanism that could be lowered into the hull and enclosed by hatches. Thereby maintaining the stealth profile when not in use.

Ok.....good job I'd finished my beer first!

Micael wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 9:51 pm

Zen9 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 9:40 pm

Micael wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 8:59 pm

BAMSE was pushed by some circles for a while, but people in the know at the time was of the opinion that it was pretty unrealistic as an idea. The motivator was to try to secure the project by getting a bigger buy in of it. But when it was essentially cancelled for the army this evaporated.

Then Umkhonto was chosen for installation, not because it was what anyone really wanted but as a tit-for-tat buy connected to South Africa buying Gripen. This was cancelled, along with a string of other things, due to a big budget cutback.

VLS IRIS-T was bought for the army due to the then cabinet being extremely hot on both off the shelf buys and ”synergies”. IE the airforce had IRIS-T’s for the Gripens so the army had to get them too if they wanted anything at all. It wouldn’t have been the preferred choice for the role that it’s used in otherwise.

Sea Ceptor has a couple of advantages apart from its supposed excellent capability. One is that more missiles can be fit into a given space than with most other systems, which is important given the limited space available on the Visbys. The other is that it is a cold launch system, which removes potential complications with the composite hull when launching.

To be honest I suspected as much on BAMSE at the time. I couldn't quite figure out how would work without either a new VLS booster stage or a hefty RAM style launcher.

Rather had a similar suspicion, IRS-T was also a sop to 'Europe'.

Umkhoto wasn't a bad missile, odd to not opt in for the AAM though as well. But Denel and all things South African are pretty much done. The teams are all in the UAE I think.

CAMM's big plus is sensor agnosticism. Frankly you should be able to datalink the target data from any digital source.

The idea for the BAMSE installation was - and you might want to sit down for this - to place the same type launcher as on the land system on an elevating mechanism that could be lowered into the hull and enclosed by hatches. Thereby maintaining the stealth profile when not in use.

Yeahhhhh….we pretty much did that disappearing launcher with the Tribals. Did not work out well.

Drunknsubmrnr wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 10:02 pm

Micael wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 9:51 pm

Zen9 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 9:40 pm

To be honest I suspected as much on BAMSE at the time. I couldn't quite figure out how would work without either a new VLS booster stage or a hefty RAM style launcher.

Rather had a similar suspicion, IRS-T was also a sop to 'Europe'.

Umkhoto wasn't a bad missile, odd to not opt in for the AAM though as well. But Denel and all things South African are pretty much done. The teams are all in the UAE I think.

CAMM's big plus is sensor agnosticism. Frankly you should be able to datalink the target data from any digital source.

The idea for the BAMSE installation was - and you might want to sit down for this - to place the same type launcher as on the land system on an elevating mechanism that could be lowered into the hull and enclosed by hatches. Thereby maintaining the stealth profile when not in use.

Yeahhhhh….we pretty much did that disappearing launcher with the Tribals. Did not work out well.

I suspect that someone remembered the AShM installation on the Halland class destroyers and thought it was a swell idea to try again.

It lowered to be reloaded below deck.

Does Sweden have a “Good Idea Fairy” too?

Drunknsubmrnr wrote: ↑Sat Nov 18, 2023 2:40 am Does Sweden have a “Good Idea Fairy” too?

Everyone has a good idea fairy.
Not everyone learns to ignore it.

I’ll use this thread to comment a bit on developments concerning the next class of Swedish surface combatants, the Luleå class.

It was earlier intended that it would consist of an evolved Visby class, ”Visby G2.” As late as 2021 this was the intent when a development contract was signed with Saab Kockums. Following the beginning of the war in Ukraine however plans changed, the navy wanted to minimize the risk of delays to the new ships. So the new plan is to have a new design and with the hulls being built abroad and then be fitted out by Kockums in Sweden. It’s not been made public where they will be built yet though a recent team up agreement by Saab Kockums and Babcock in the UK does hint rather strongly in that direction.

While it also hasn’t been mentioned in public it is also possible that this new design will be larger than the Visby G2 was intended to be. There has been some hints pointing to that. But officially it is still a ”corvette”, whatever that means nowadays. The only strong indication as to how it will be equipped yet are repeated mentions of longer range air defense missiles than the ones being fitted to the Visby class, and possibly including an ABM capability. It seems as if this AD role has been given a higher priority, so it is possible that a larger number of missiles is now being planned, perhaps driving up the size of the ships as well. Given that it appears that Babcock is involved, I wonder if it is being considered to have the new class be based on the Type 31 design. I guess we’ll see.

Well it would tie into Danish and Polish decisions rather well if Sweden went down the Type 31 route.

Zen9 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 1:44 pm Well it would tie into Danish and Polish decisions rather well if Sweden went down the Type 31 route.

It might also tie into my pension plan quite well too!

I listened to a podcast episode guested by a couple of people who are deep into the process with the new surface combatant. While they’re not saying exactly what hull and such has been selected, there are some clues given. On the one hand they still refer to it as a ”large corvette”, at a ”bit over 100 meters in lenght” and with a maximum accomodation of 110. This points to a smaller hull than the Type 31. On the other hand they also said that it will have a multi mission bay underneath the flight deck that can house 6 TEUs, exactly as the Type 31.

So, my suspicion is that we are looking at essentially a Type 31 hull (or Arrowhead 140 as it is marketed), possibly shortened but perhaps original lenght. With a different sensor and weapons fit and so forth of course.

A bit more on the Luleå class:

.@Babcockplc has been selected by Saab to support the design for the development of the Swedish Navy’s new Luleå-class Surface Combatant. (100m+ length)

Senior representatives from the Swedish Navy, RN, Saab and Babcock met in Rosyth to mark the beginning of the collaboration (following the Strategic Cooperation Agreement signed in Sept 2023).

[Edit] A longer version:

Babcock International Group has been selected by Saab to support the design for the development of the Swedish Navy’s new Luleå-class Surface Combatant.

Saab, commissioned by FMV, the Swedish Defence Materiel Administration, will design four ships for the Swedish Navy.

Babcock will initially provide engineering support including structural design and auxiliary systems, supporting Saab to complete the basic design phase.

During a visit to Babcock’s Rosyth facility in Scotland, senior representatives from the Swedish Navy, UK Royal Navy, FMV, Saab and Babcock met to mark the beginning of the ambitious new collaboration in naval programme delivery, which follows the Strategic Cooperation Agreement signed by Saab and Babcock at DSEI in September 2023.


Babcock and Saab will also work closely together to identify potential export markets for the Luleå design.

Mats Wicksell, Senior Vice President and Head of Business Area Kockums for Saab, said:

“We are proud to take on the mission to start the basic design of the new Luleå-class for Sweden and happy to cooperate with Babcock in this project. This is an important collaboration between Swedish and British shipbuilders, and I am looking forward to a close teamwork to strengthen the Swedish capabilities at sea.”


David Lockwood, Babcock CEO, said:

“This is a hugely important programme for the Swedish Navy, Saab and Babcock. Our collective capabilities in Karlskrona and Rosyth will ensure we deliver a class-leading design for the new Luleå platforms.”

I saw a Swedish naval officer clarify a couple of things, the hulls will be built in Rosyth by Babcock and fitted out in Karlskrona by Saab Kockums. Also said that it’s looking like slightly shorter and lower displacement hulls than the Type 31.

Back in the days before Arrowhead 140 was chosen and became Type 31 there was the Arrowhead 120 as a serious contender.

It's possible this is being revived.

In the promo material (pdf) and articles announcing the Arrowhead 120, it looks like it's designed with a sort of cutaway ram, akin to the pre-WW1 light and scout cruisers of the Royal Navy and the Hochseeflotte.