Great War Group Shooting Event 08/07/23

[Bernard Woolley]

Great War Group Shooting event 8th July 2023

On Saturday 8th July I had the pleasure of attending a historical weapons shooting event organized by the Great War Group, of which I’m a member, in association with a shooting club in Gloucestershire. The day began with a ‘show and tell’ in which we got the chance to handle a variety of firearms from the era of matchlock muskets to modern semi-automatic. We also had the chance to talk to the owners of said weapons were also available to chat about them. A safety brief followed regarding the use of the weapons on the range which we would have the opportunity to fire. The club had also kindly organised a barbeque which was included in the cost of the day.

This over we proceeded to the main event of the day, the shooty bit! Six lanes were set up with a variety of weapons, which we would be able to load and fire under supervision from the owners, or other club member.

Weapons Fired.
I shall list the weapons I fired, along with number of rounds and a few comments on them.

- 17th Century Matchlock – A reproduction of an English Civil War era weapon. The sort of thing used at Marston Moor etc. Only difference between it and an original matchlock and this one was that it had a steel, rather than iron barrel. Quite a pleasant weapon to shoot, especially since its stand took a lot of the weight. Recoil was low and I’m pretty sure I hit the target with the one round I fired from it.

- Brown Bess Flintlock – Quite a fun weapon to load and make ready. Again, the recoil was not a big issue and I hit the target I fired from it. My hands were black after firing this and the Matchlock.

- Enfield P1853 – The rifle the British Army would use in the Crimea and would also be used by both sides in the American Civil War. Loading and tamping down the propellant and round was straightforward. Fired two rounds from it, one was an American Burton cartridge and the other was a British Pritchett. The American round made a louder bang and had more of a recoil, plus was a bit more complicated to load. The British round was far easier, and historically would not foul the barrel as quickly. It made less of a bang, had a far more pleasant recoil and I’m sure I shot more accurately with it. My feeling is that in action, the Pritchett would be the better round to use.

- Snider – The breach-loading conversion of the Enfield. Little fiddley to load until I got the knack. Recoil was not unpleasant. Ejecting the spent cartridge was something I just could not get the hang of. Put four rounds through the weapon, the last three at the end of the day when I got the chance to do a bit more shooting. Being a bit tired and sore did not help with the ejecting process.

- Martini-Henry – The iconic rifle we’ve all seen in Zulu. Loading was relatively easy, although, if like me, you’re doing it at the end of the day, and you are tired, sore, and losing the strength in your arms, it can be a bit hard. I fired two rounds successfully before messing up loading the third round, which I did not load flush with the barrel. Interestingly, that was a common user error I’ve read about. Recoil, as with all the black powder weapons was not a particular issue and shooting accurately with it was not a problem. This and the Snider were the only two weapons, other than the Matchlock, that I fired standing up.

- Lee-Enfield Mk.III* - The first rifle I fired at the event and indeed the first full-bore rifle I’ve ever fired, so I was pretty nervous. Belying its reputation, the bolt on this example was stiff as was loading the 5-round charger. I chambered the first round, took careful aim, breathed out and pulled the trigger. ‘CLICK’. No bang. No recoil. Now, per the range rules, this increasingly nervous virgin shooter had to keep the SMLE pointed down range for 30 seconds before it could be cleared. The rifle’s owner found that the bolt had not engaged with the first round and had to take out the magazine and mess about with it. After that I successfully put five rounds through the rifle, shooting pretty accurately. That particular rifle had another couple of stoppages during the day, for, as far as I know, the same reason. The recoil on the SMLE was noticeable, but not unpleasant.
Despite assurances from a couple of club members that SMLE were ‘just that stiff back in the day’, I spoke to a few GWG members, who, like me, did not think that was true. I’ve never, for example, read any accounts from the First World War that said the SMLE was stiff to load, or that the same was true of the bolt. So, when I got home, I got hold of my deactivated SMLE. Now, taking into account I was not actually chambering a round, its bolt is very smooth for a rifle that has probably not been oiled for decades. My conclusion is that particular Mk.III* is probably just not in the best condition, possibly due to its age.

- Lee Enfield No.4 Mk.2 – That particular example had been made in 1955 for the Irish Army. The lightened bolt of the No.4 really stood out in comparison to the Mk.III* and was a smooth as butter. Loading the 5 round charger was also far easier; I used the same amount of force as I used with the rifle’s older sibling and practically put the rounds through the bottom of the magazine. I was able to put 5 rounds through the rifle really quickly.

- Lee Enfield No.5 ‘Jungle Carbine – First got a chance to handle this rifle during the ‘show and tell’ and it is light as a feather compared to the other Lee-Enfields. The bolt was as smooth and easy as the No.4. But the recoil and bang experienced from the one round I put through it was another matter! The recoil was fierce, and the bang was really unpleasant. Anyone firing one of those in the Malay jungle would have let every Communist Terrorist for miles around know they were about. I can imagine that a No.5 could become quite tiresome to use fairly quickly.

- Mauser G98 – The standard infantry of the German Army in the First World War. My experience of it was that the bolt was a joy to use, hardly needing any effort to chamber a round. I fired three rounds through this rifle and while reloading was a pleasure, the recoil was quite sharp compared to its British contemporary.

- K98az – The shortened version of the above rifle made in 1918 for Stormtroopers. The comments on the G98 also apply to this rifle, except that the recoil was worse and resulted in a ‘wow’ from me on firing the first of two rounds.

- K98K – The even further shortened and simplified version of the G98. The example I fired was from 1945 and was an utter piece of crap! It used unseasoned wood for the furniture and looked like it had been put together in someone’s shed, badly! The recoil was appalling and led to some serious ‘ouch’ and swearing. One round from the K98K was more than enough! I blame this rifle for me being sorer than I perhaps would have been had I not fired it before the ‘Mad Minute’. It actually made feel almost sorry for the teenage ex-Hitler Youth who were probably handed that rifle and ones like it and sent off to fight the Red Army.

Some General Comments: As I had travelled the furthest, the club very kindly allowed me to try a ‘Mad Minute’ with the Lee-Enfield of my choice. I’m sure that it was no surprise that I chose the No.4! My shoulder was getting quite sore by this late in the day, so even shooting a No.4 was getting a bit unpleasant. However, even with that I was able to manage 12 rounds in a minute, then finishing off with the three rounds left in the magazine. Had I done it earlier, I’m pretty sure I could have managed 15, but I’m pleased with how well I did. The club also let me fire more rounds through the Snider and Martini-Henry for the same reason.
After Saturday, if you told me that I had to take one of the weapons to war in its contemporary setting, I’d pick the No.4 any day of the week, probably followed by the SMLE, despite the issue I had with it.
If the GWG manages to organise this again, I’d go. Yet another reason I will give to join the Great War Group.

Bernard’s Pro-Tip: When firing a matchlock, or pro-tip, I would recommend doing so in long sleeves. Unless you are prepared to risk minor burns on your arms from burning embers that may blow back on you!

Additional Pro-Tip: If firing a ‘Mad Minute’ from a seating position, you may be put off your stride by a spent cartridge that almost lands in your lap!

Final Comments: Considering that the price of gunpower and propellant has recently shot up (no pun intended) because people seem to be buying it up for some reason (no idea why!) a cost of £30 including the BBQ was amazing good value. I doubt that we would have been able to shoot such a wide variety of weapons anywhere for that cost!

[Bernard Woolley]

Accompanying Pictures

I will post some pics shortly. Please DO NOT share them anywhere else, as the club has asked us not to share on social media for privacy issues.

[Johnnie Lyle]

Firing a matchlock from a rest is cheating!

How did you find the difference between the Snider and the Martini-Henry? It reads like you had a lot more trouble with the Martini-Henry (beyond being sore). It’s very interesting because the Snider is often derided in the literature, and intentionally issued to Indian units for that reason, but the gap between them doesn’t seem that big.

No Lee-Metfords available? No Maxim guns? For shame!

[Craiglxviii]

Jan?

You jammy goit!!!!

[kdahm]

Firing a matchlock from a rest is certainly not cheating. The longer ones were expressly designed to be shot off of a shooting stick, and the shorter ones could be.

I'm not surprised at the impressions of the felt recoil. My hardest shooting iron is a M1896 in 6.5x55 Swede, complete with crowns everywhere. It's just the design of the buttstock, because the cartridge isn't all that energetic. The 1903 and M1917 in 30-06 are much softer. M1's are downright pleasant.

Good job on going there and giving it a try.

On the additional pro tip, landing in the lap is nothing. Hot brass from the neighboring shooting landing in the nape of the neck and rolling under the shooting coat is a pain. Speaking to some of the ladies, since I'm not endowed with the privilege, having hot brass land in the cleavage is also downright annoying.

[RJGFox]

Super interesting read, thank you.

[Craiglxviii]

Hot brass down the neck (or up the cuff) is an interesting experience.

Speaking as a long time black powder shooter, there’s a reason that sideburns are called that- they burn so your face doesn’t! Also one can easily get tattooed from the priming going off; burning black powder will happily settle into the skin and leave a permanent mark.

Jan, if you think the mad minute with SMLE is fun, try 3 rounds per minute with a Bess;)

[Johnnie Lyle]

Firing a matchlock from a rest is certainly not cheating. The longer ones were expressly designed to be shot off of a shooting stick, and the shorter ones could be.

It very much is by the 1640s, and even the 1630s. Musket rests rapidly went out as the Thirty Years War progressed, and while England and Scotland were on the back foot technologically in 1642, they certainly were not by 1644, which is the era of Marston Moor.

[Bernard Woolley]

Firing a matchlock from a rest is cheating!

Firing a matchlock from a rest is certainly not cheating. The longer ones were expressly designed to be shot off of a shooting stick, and the shorter ones could be.

The matchlock was taller than me! There's no way in Hell it could be fired from the shoulder without a rest!

How did you find the difference between the Snider and the Martini-Henry? It reads like you had a lot more trouble with the Martini-Henry (beyond being sore). It’s very interesting because the Snider is often derided in the literature, and intentionally issued to Indian units for that reason, but the gap between them doesn’t seem that big.

The Martini-Henry was the better of the two from my experience. I just couldn't eject the spent cartridge from the Snider, while the M-H was easy. Working a lever is a lot better and easier than having to hit part of the side of your weapon with the side of your hand. My left-hand side is still not right after the stroke, so my left arm is weaker. The Snider and M-H were the last weapons I shot that day after over five hours of shooting different stuff. The strength in my left arm was just gone when I was loading the M-H for the last time and I was having trouble supporting the rifle. I called it a day when I had a misfire. I also think that the fact that my strength was ebbing meant I just couldn't get ejecting from the Snider right.

No Lee-Metfords available? No Maxim guns? For shame!

There were Lee-Metfords, LLE & CLLE in the 'show and tell'. As for Maxims, well, we did have a Vickers, but it was not the right sort of range for that and even if it were, for Thirty Quid, there's no way we'd have gotten to fire MGs. At £30 each, the GWG made a profit of 29p each per person. We also raised £150 for the RBL on the day.
If you want to fire Vickers, or Lewis, Brens, Vickers K and stuff like MG34s, the Vickers MG Collection & Research Association do that. During the GWG's first conference in Maidstone back in 2021, some members went to the Vickers MG guys to shoot those MGs and Lewis.

I'm not surprised at the impressions of the felt recoil. My hardest shooting iron is a M1896 in 6.5x55 Swede, complete with crowns everywhere. It's just the design of the buttstock, because the cartridge isn't all that energetic. The 1903 and M1917 in 30-06 are much softer. M1's are downright pleasant

Before Saturday, I didn't really quite comprehend the effects of putting a hot round through a light weapon. The 7.92 in the Mausers was hotter than the .303, not that I think it would have made any difference in the average engagement ranges in both world wars and it showed. It went from 'wow' with the G98, 'ouch' with the K98az to 'Jesus f*cking Christ' with the K98K. The K98K and No.5 really did bring home to me what happens when you put a powerful round through a light rifle! Talking of M1917, there was one weapon that I did not get a chance to shoot, but wanted to, and that was a P14. The guys who did shoot it told me the bolt was smooth, but that the recoil was worse than the SMLE. If it also wasn't late in the day and I wasn't broken, I could have potentially paid a small amount to fire some dodgy Russian made .30 through an M1917. I was told the recoil from that was quite something and that flames shoot out of the barrel when using those rounds!

Good job on going there and giving it a try.

It was a long way, but it was well worth it, not just to shoot, but to meet fellow members, socialise and make new friends. Being the longest-travelled person also worked out in that I got to shoot more rounds! That's incredibly kind of the gun owners, the Snider and M-H especially, given the rounds from them are no longer commercially available and they have to make them!

On the additional pro tip, landing in the lap is nothing.

It was within millimeters of my gentleman sausage! I think I can be forgiven for probably missing out on getting another shot off before I composed myself. I reckon that cost me maybe managing 13 or 14 rounds in the minute.

Jan?

You jammy goit!!!!

Craig?

Join the GWG! We might get to do it again next year. Especially since the guy from the shooting club who organised it is now a group member.

Super interesting read, thank you.

You're very welcome. I think I was not the only person there that day who got a better understanding of things we had just read about in the past. It also allows me to continue to bang the drum of the GWG. I really believe that there are people on this site who would really enjoy being a member.

Speaking as a long time black powder shooter, there’s a reason that sideburns are called that- they burn so your face doesn’t! Also one can easily get tattooed from the priming going off; burning black powder will happily settle into the skin and leave a permanent mark.

It's taken until today to get all the black powder residue out from under my fingernails and creases on my hands.

Jan, if you think the mad minute with SMLE is fun, try 3 rounds per minute with a Bess;)

Having now loaded one, I reckon I could do 2 in a minute at the moment.

It very much is by the 1640s, and even the 1630s. Musket rests rapidly went out as the Thirty Years War progressed, and while England and Scotland were on the back foot technologically in 1642, they certainly were not by 1644, which is the era of Marston Moor.

There is no way on Earth that the musket we were shooting could have been fired without one. Since I'm not a musket expert, I can only say were were told it was a repro of an ECW era weapon.

[Johnnie Lyle]

It might have been a fortress gun, rather than a matchlock you’d use in the field. Or more 1500s than 1600s.

[Craiglxviii]

Me, go back into reenactment? Well, I do have an SMLE, bayonet, original canteen, Sam Browne… it’s the time that’s the trouble.

Who’s the chap in charge?

Edit. For the Beds, it becomes substantially easier when a) one knows the loading drill, b) is wearing period kit (placement of the cartridge box on upper right bumcheek is vital) and c) one is doing it to the shouted word of command.

I remember doing timed trials with about 20 lads, stopwatch and metronome, we could get 3 rounds out easily and after an hour the lads were beating the timed word of command. Ended up just under 4rpm.

My personal best is 7, but that was after years of practice.

[kdahm]

The Martini-Henry was the better of the two from my experience. I just couldn't eject the spent cartridge from the Snider, while the M-H was easy. Working a lever is a lot better and easier than having to hit part of the side of your weapon with the side of your hand. My left-hand side is still not right after the stroke, so my left arm is weaker. The Snider and M-H were the last weapons I shot that day after over five hours of shooting different stuff. The strength in my left arm was just gone when I was loading the M-H for the last time and I was having trouble supporting the rifle. I called it a day when I had a misfire. I also think that the fact that my strength was ebbing meant I just couldn't get ejecting from the Snider right.

The other big difference on the bolt is whether it's a cock-on-closing or cock-on-opening. The earlier ones were on closing and tended to have very long firing pin travel. That requires quite a bit of a straight push to load the firing pin spring. The cock-on-closing uses a cam action as the bolt is rotated up, so the firing pin travel is less and the perceived force needed is lower. That really affects how it feels to work the action.

On the additional pro tip, landing in the lap is nothing.

It was within millimeters of my gentleman sausage! I think I can be forgiven for probably missing out on getting another shot off before I composed myself. I reckon that cost me maybe managing 13 or 14 rounds in the minute.

Wearing decent pants, the heat from one round takes a while to be felt. I agree, it can be nerve wracking the first time it happens and can rather distract from your aim.

It very much is by the 1640s, and even the 1630s. Musket rests rapidly went out as the Thirty Years War progressed, and while England and Scotland were on the back foot technologically in 1642, they certainly were not by 1644, which is the era of Marston Moor.

There is no way on Earth that the musket we were shooting could have been fired without one. Since I'm not a musket expert, I can only say were were told it was a repro of an ECW era weapon.

Yup, long matchlock at the time of the transition. Looking through a google search, both were in use during the first part of the ECW. Since matchlocks were expensive, there were likely groups using both types over the entire period, even if they were no longer first line equipment.

[Bernard Woolley]

Have added some pics of the day.

[Matt Wiser]

You lucky stiff! I am drooling with envy. Seriously, though, a lot of history there. Glad to see you got your hands on some of it.

[warshipadmin]

Fun day out, nice write up. I don''t know how old our Lee Enfields were, a lot of our kit was WW2, but I can't remember any problems with loading them or stiff bolt actions.

[JBG]

Green with envy Bernard!

Did you need a firearms licence of some sort?

Jonathan

[Bernard Woolley]

Did you need a firearms licence of some sort?

Nope. Just needed to fill in a short form to say that I hadn’t served a three year, or more prison service.


Do have another couple of general observations/ comments.

I have an impressive purple bruise!

A Mauser bolt-action may well be smooth as silk, but it takes longer to chamber a round and then eject one than it does with a Lee-Enfield. In the time it took me to fire one round from a Mauser, I could have fired two, or even three from a Lee-Enfield.

[kdahm]

Did you need a firearms licence of some sort?

Nope. Just needed to fill in a short form to say that I hadn’t served a three year, or more prison service.


Do have another couple of general observations/ comments.

I have an impressive purple bruise!

A Mauser bolt-action may well be smooth as silk, but it takes longer to chamber a round and then eject one than it does with a Lee-Enfield. In the time it took me to fire one round from a Mauser, I could have fired two, or even three from a Lee-Enfield.

I would tend to agree. Because of the firing pin, the Mauser has a very long bolt throw. That means lifting your head from the stock after every shot for the reload. By comparison, the M1917 has a fairly short throw so the head can be rocked a bit to the side. Also, the mad minute shooting with the thumb and forefinger on the bolt handle ball and the middle finger on the trigger is possible on the M1917 but uncomfortable on the M96.