History, Politics And Current Affairs

I’m early in to this. And in shock.

Picard just said “fuck”.

Craiglxviii wrote: ↑Tue Apr 18, 2023 9:59 pm I’m early in to this. And in shock.

Picard just said “fuck”.

Well, it has been rather traumatic for him.

Johnnie Lyle wrote: ↑Tue Apr 18, 2023 10:03 pm

Craiglxviii wrote: ↑Tue Apr 18, 2023 9:59 pm I’m early in to this. And in shock.

Picard just said “fuck”.

Well, it has been rather traumatic for him.

It’s like that meme. “There is a word for when Vulcans learn what “fuck” means”…

Bernard Woolley wrote: ↑Sat Apr 15, 2023 2:03 am Talking of the Fleet. Did anyone think it looked too small? Yes, it was big, but with Starfleet’s responsibilities, I’d have thought it would have been massive. I do wonder what is happening in the areas the Fleet is supposed to be patrolling.

It's something that I'm sure sounded awesome in the writer's room, and maybe makes sense to folks who only watched TNG. It totally falls apart if you take off the Roddenberry Rose Glasses and look at it from a military perspective and/or watched DS9.

If this were early TNG era, I could actually buy the Fleet being that small. That was the Federation / StarFleet at the height of their hubris after decades of relative peace.
- The Klingons are our friends.
- The Romulans are in seclusion.
- No Borg . . . yet.
- There was the Cardassian Border War. But I get the sense the Federation was happy to fight that to a stalemate and never really tried to "win".

Prior to Wolf 359, IIRC, StarFleet had close to a week's notice that the Borg were coming . . . and all StarFleet could gather in the heart of Federation space was 40 ship. StarFleet was composed of not-warships - vessels of peace and exploration with combat capabilities.

Fast forward a few years to when the Cardassians are introduced. You get the sense that StarFleet has some "Break Glass in Case of War" Captains, but I'm not sure any of them make admiral.

Post Wolf 359 to First Contact, StarFleet brings a series of ships online that were designed to fight the Borg. They might not call them warships, but they're warships. Then in the lead up to the Dominion War, the Federation applies their economic/industrial potential to churning out new generation ships and clearing the mothball yards of anything Miranda and later that can be refitted for war.

Post-Dominion War, the Dominion is back in the Gamma Quadrant, the Cardassians are broken and occupied, the Klingons are battered, and a few years later the Romulans have the heart of their Empire destroyed. And around this time, Voyager makes it home with some new technology and groovy future tech.
I figure that nearly every surviving starship that predated the Galaxy/Nebula generation was either scrapped or quickly went into mothballs. And even a lot of that generation that survived may have been worn out by wartime service.

As StarFleet returns to a peacetime establishment, how quickly are the Anti-Borg/Dominion War "warships" replaced by a new generation of Explorer /Science ships. We've seen some Anti-Borg/Dominion War ships in the background, but have no idea how how much of the Fleet they comprise. It's also unlcear if Utopia Planitia ever got back up and running.

Jumping to Season 1 of Picard, StarFleet gathered, what, 200 ships on maybe 48 hours notice at the edge of Federation Space. That certainly implies a very large fleet.

The Fleet in S3E9 looked like a few hundred starships. I could buy that in the early TNG era, but NOT in the Picard present day.
Maybe it's StarFleet's Home Fleet and there are other "fleets" gathered around the Federation? Or what ships aren't in the Sol System are so spread out, that even if they aren't "compromised", they'd be no match for Fleet Formation?

If anything else, this episode reminds us of the dangers of hubris. Starfleet and the Federation were so pleased with themselves regarding gathering the Fleet for Frontier Day and developing a system that links ships together, that nothing could go wrong, that they never stopped to think about whether they should.

I think we're supposed to piece together that the infiltrator bad guys had a lot to do with that.

I was late catching up due to vacation and so powered through “Dominion,” “Surrender” and then “Vox” in three days, and the emotion is anger, a kind of anger very rarely evoked by television or movies because I am generally not invested. Even shows like Discovery or Lower Decks, which tap into the same rich history but can not evoke the same emotions.

Because I am invested. And the villains are now not the coldly logical and ruthless Borg of old. They are almost deliberately calculated to be cruel. Not just Vadic, but the Borg queen. Especially the Borg queen and how she took their children. Up to now, Picard and Voyager has built up sympathy for at least the xBorg. This episode draws a line under the evil that is the Borg, with a giant exclamation point. As a species, as a concept, they are as close to irredeemably evil as one can get. They embody every fear we have as a species and a society, and they are the ultimate embodiment of the worst sort of tyranny - not one born of lust for power but the perverted belief that harm is for “the greater good.”

It’s an existential threat, and it feels it.

It’s probably building a degree of tension we have not seen since that first long summer after Riker gave the order to fire in “Best of Both Worlds.” But it also demands they don’t dead stick the landing, as damn near every Trek two parter does.

And as beautiful and incredible and touching as that last moment of 1701-D reborn, and the almost sanctity with which Wil Wheaton and Michael Okuda treat it in the Ready Room, there’s killing and vengeance to be done tomorrow.

It had damn well bettet be a good day for the Borg queen to die badly, or much of that investment will be wasted. This is not the time to hold hands and sing kumbayah.

Johnnie Lyle wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 5:07 am I was late catching up due to vacation and so powered through “Dominion,” “Surrender” and then “Vox” in three days, and the emotion is anger, a kind of anger very rarely evoked by television or movies because I am generally not invested. Even shows like Discovery or Lower Decks, which tap into the same rich history but can not evoke the same emotions.

Because I am invested. And the villains are now not the coldly logical and ruthless Borg of old. They are almost deliberately calculated to be cruel. Not just Vadic, but the Borg queen. Especially the Borg queen and how she took their children. Up to now, Picard and Voyager has built up sympathy for at least the xBorg. This episode draws a line under the evil that is the Borg, with a giant exclamation point. As a species, as a concept, they are as close to irredeemably evil as one can get. They embody every fear we have as a species and a society, and they are the ultimate embodiment of the worst sort of tyranny - not one born of lust for power but the perverted belief that harm is for “the greater good.”

It’s an existential threat, and it feels it.

It’s probably building a degree of tension we have not seen since that first long summer after Riker gave the order to fire in “Best of Both Worlds.” But it also demands they don’t dead stick the landing, as damn near every Trek two parter does.

And as beautiful and incredible and touching as that last moment of 1701-D reborn, and the almost sanctity with which Wil Wheaton and Michael Okuda treat it in the Ready Room, there’s killing and vengeance to be done tomorrow.

It had damn well bettet be a good day for the Borg queen to die badly, or much of that investment will be wasted. This is not the time to hold hands and sing kumbayah.

Yes, yes and bloody thrice yes. This has been as well done as the best that any Trek had to offer, with the exception of some of the two-parters and some DS9. This show needs to come back, hard and swinging. If I dare to say, for me it’s almost doing away with the cack of the JJ Abrams movies.

Although I must admit to a little 12yo childish squee when Worf came in. And, and, FUCKING BAT’LETH DECAPIBLOODYTATION, that’s what I’m talking about!

Worf, warrior monk.

There were some serious feels delivered in a way so many two-parters and endings failed to deliver. There were moments I actually saluted.

It also ended exactly as it had to, harkening back to Overall, the emotions landed. Which is a major accomplishment. It’s too emotional for a casual rewatch, but if this is the end, it’s The Undiscovered Country level of sendoff.

Bernard Woolley wrote: ↑Sat Apr 15, 2023 2:03 am Noooooooooooooo!

Spoiler!

Not Shaw! They killed Shaw! Just as I was beginning to like him!

He lost his life, but regained the piece of his soul he lost at Wolf 359. I suspect he’d call it a fair trade.

His cameo in “The Last Generation” sealed it.

....Okay. Overall, 4 out of 5.

* There were a couple of downright clunky moments, almost as if they suddenly realized they were in the last ep and had to wind things up.
* The Borg Queen could have - should have been - a lot more threatening. All they had her do was monologue when the opportunity was there to have her go all Alien for a couple of glorious minutes.
* Some of the writing seemed awkward/stilted.
* The writers missed, IMHO, an incredible opportunity to bring in the Borg we saw at the end of S2 as allies to the Federation.
* Driving a Galaxy class through the Death Star - I mean, the Borg cube.

On the other hand...

*Data's counseling session.
*Admiral Tuvok doing CDR Seven's performance review.
*Taking 1701-G out.
*The final moments at Ten Forward were positively joyous.
*And the last few moments with Jack had me grinning from ear to ear.



I'll take S3 as a win. Plus, we're getting a Section 31 movie, and SNW comes back June 15th.

Mike

MikeKozlowski wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 10:36 am ....Okay. Overall, 4 out of 5.

* There were a couple of downright clunky moments, almost as if they suddenly realized they were in the last ep and had to wind things up.
* The Borg Queen could have - should have been - a lot more threatening. All they had her do was monologue when the opportunity was there to have her go all Alien for a couple of glorious minutes.
* Some of the writing seemed awkward/stilted.
* The writers missed, IMHO, an incredible opportunity to bring in the Borg we saw at the end of S2 as allies to the Federation.
* Driving a Galaxy class through the Death Star - I mean, the Borg cube.

I dunno if the Borg Queen as a physical threat would have worked, given how weak the unicomplex is, how she’s sucking the life out of drones to sustain herself, how she seduced rather than raped Jack, and especially how she’s using the Changlings as her stalking horse. It’s her very weakness, combined with the sheer arrogance of hiding in Jupiter, that makes the stalking horse work. Strong, threatening Borg don’t do stalking horses - they’re brute force and blatantly obvious.

Nor is she Khan, who had a legit beef with Kirk. The Borg Queen is Miss Havisham, bent on a frankly ridiculous revenge for losing her thralls, and she absolutely has to be diminished, pathetic and above all small for the play to work. Yeah, she’s an evil, petty, vindictive bitch, but dying easily is part of her being small. I’d personally have preferred she just get phasered out of hand, the last dismissive gesture for a pathetic waste of oxygen - perhaps Worf summing it up as “she did not die well.”

I also liked seeing ENTERPRISE fly into the Unicomplex. We never really got to see the D fly, because of the constraints of modeling in the 80s and 90s - except for the one glorious moment in “All good things . . .” The little bit where Troi takes the helm is neat, or Crusher at tactical with her “you learn a few things.”

MikeKozlowski wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 10:36 amOn the other hand...

*Data's counseling session.
*Admiral Tuvok doing CDR Seven's performance review.
*Taking 1701-G out.
*The final moments at Ten Forward were positively joyous.
*And the last few moments with Jack had me grinning from ear to ear.

Shaw’s hologram to Tuvok (I think he was wearing captain’s pips) was the culmination of why Shaw is one of the best Trek characters and character development we’ve seen, and Tuvok’s “resignation denied” is just perfect.

They were wins, huge wins for the Ten Forward poker game that hit ALL the emotional notes.

I loved Jack’s nervousness before the reveal he’s being posted to ENTERPRISE. I just wish 1701-G was a new build, not a rename of TITAN, who absolutely earned her place in Starfleet’s roll of honor.

Taking ENTERPRISE out ties in so well with the same scene in the SNW teaser.

Jack and Q was phenomenal, especially since it’s Q more as mentor/uncle than malevolent.

MikeKozlowski wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 10:36 amI'll take S3 as a win. Plus, we're getting a Section 31 movie, and SNW comes back June 15th.

Mike

I can do without the Section 31 movie, unless it’s stuffing them out an airlock. The bad idea fairy doesn’t just work there; I swear she runs the place.

I am stoked for SNW.

She’s an exploratory vessel, so probably more cruiser than destroyer. That’s a reasonable class for ENTERPRISE.

Johnnie Lyle wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 9:34 pm She’s an exploratory vessel, so probably more cruiser than destroyer. That’s a reasonable class for ENTERPRISE.

Enterprise has been a heavy cruiser right from the start at least until -E.

Not that destroyers didn’t do exploratory work of their own, but… still… renaming an already-commissioned ship, that’s not on. Plus it’s bad luck.

Craiglxviii wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 10:14 pm

Johnnie Lyle wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 9:34 pm She’s an exploratory vessel, so probably more cruiser than destroyer. That’s a reasonable class for ENTERPRISE.

Enterprise has been a heavy cruiser right from the start at least until -E.

Not that destroyers didn’t do exploratory work of their own, but… still… renaming an already-commissioned ship, that’s not on. Plus it’s bad luck.

GALAXYs were more battleship than cruisers, as were SOVEREIGNs and presumably ODYSSEYs.

The CONSTITUTION class looks like a deliberate update of the previous CONSTITUTION class ships, which is fitting for ENTERPRISE. Returning to her roots as it were.

Renaming isn’t on because it diminishes TITAN’s legacy as one hell of a starship.

I wish Data had taken the opportunity to say "Oh, no, you did NOT shoot that green shit at me!" as a shout out to Independence Day.

Really enjoyed this episode. Gave the TNG crew a good send off.

I’m not going to add anything on the Titan to Enterprise issue, because I don’t have anything additional to say. I do hope, however, that we may see her again soon.

I’d love to know what the Borg have against Liverpool. It’s noticeable over Seven’s shoulder as being the first city in the British Isles that the Fleet targets.

Bernard Woolley wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 11:46 pm Really enjoyed this episode. Gave the TNG crew a good send off.

I’m not going to add anything on the Titan to Enterprise issue, because I don’t have anything additional to say. I do hope, however, that we may see her again soon.

I’d love to know what the Borg have against Liverpool. It’s noticeable over Seven’s shoulder as being the first city in the British Isles that the Fleet targets.

They’re from White Star Line

Maybe the Borg have visited Liverpool and came back to find their cube up on bricks?

I did love that bit where Worf and Riker went a bit Boyle and Peralta.