C-123 Providers, and AMARC disposal policies in TLW

[Matt Wiser]

Re: the F-4s: No way is the Powell Administration going to allow the AIM-120 to go to Iran. Which leaves the F-4F as those likely to be heading down under.

[James1978]

So some of Australia's F-4E order would get diverted to Iran with US replacing the order with German F-4F for free? Since there are limited F-4E available and F-4F has AMRRAM capability?

Well, maybe.

I think it's looking like Australia is going shopping at AMARC before anyone is seriously thinking about aid/sales to Iran. So they are going to tag the best air frames and even once Iran is on the radar, I'm not sure anyone is going to tell a Five Eyes ally that they have to share the "good F-4s".

BUT, that initial survey is before the Typhoon enters squadron service starting in 2001. Once the Typhoon is in service with line squadrons and the Luftwaffe is confident that "yea, this thing works and we can let those F-4Fs go", then Australia might very well take a look at them as they are the only F-4s that haven't been sitting in the desert for years and are essentially ready to go. If you're looking for an emergency capability limited to continental air defense , you could do a lot worse than those F-4Fs.

There are about 351 F-4Ds in AMARC. If the "D" can work, that solves several problems. Since, at the time, the only other F-4D operator the US cares about is in the process of replacing them with F-15Ks, then Australia might be able to pick up the whole lot for scrap value. That would also have the advantage of not clearing AMARC out of the F-4Es, which several close US allies are still flying.

As far as an initial batch of F-4Es for the RAAF to start training on, well, you could probably talk Uncle Sam into parting with some of those Type 1000 F-4Gs. Those F-4Gs are going to be back in the air the fastest. Just a thought.
To be perfectly honest, I don't see the F-4 coming back into US service. I think the F-4Gs being in Type 1000 storage probably had more to do with the US hoping to get Greece or Turkey to take some and form proper Wild Weasel units.

[James1978]

On the transport side, I can find no 'pool' of these transport aircraft. The RAAF has 17 DHC-4 Caribou in 2000 in-country and on the books but only 8 were serviceable with 38 SQN. 35 SQN transferred its last Caribou to 38 SQN in 2000 and was reduced to 'paper' status. We used these aircraft very extensively in Vietnam and PNG and they were worn out. Yes they could be refurbished and in TLW they will have to be. There are very few if any available worldwide in this timeframe. Australia has enough to cycle through the workshops (RAAF Wagga's facilities can handle the work) to keep 38 SQN's orbat of 8 or so DHC-4 in service in TLW. That's enough to take care of much of the requirement in Papua New Guinea, which the Caribou is peculiarly suited to - the flying conditions there are horrifying.

C-47 can deal with the rest of the demand there in PNG. probably add 6-8 classic C-47 to 38 SQN.

That leaves zero light ramp-loader transports for the CONAUS tasks. I think that with the C-47T force the requirement is for about 30 machines, based out of the bare bases (say 6 operational in each, the rest being cycling through maintenance and attrition reserves).

Make this 35 SQN, with a mix at the start and moving to a mix of whatever C-119 and C-123 that can be found, the unit having a flight at each of the three barer bases to support the NORFORCE and Reserve units and their little bases across the north.

Does this seem reasonable?

Does anyone have a better 'cheap and cheerful aircraft' possibility? Is there a pool of DHC-4 anywhere? There was a DHC-4T conversion, this would actually be preferable to a Provider-Boxcar mix if there's a pool of Caribou anywhere.

Mark, just how many C-119/C-123 are you thinking you'll need?

[James1978]

There were (by 2000 @) a load of DHC-4 (20-30 odd) on their original engines working small, el-cheapo cargo flights across the Florida panhandle and parts west along the Gulf Coast to Galveston, I seem to recall they had a good deal going along the small airstrips across southern Louisiana. Again they’re ripe for conversion to Turbo-Caribou although there were still adequate spare engines and parts to keep them flying as-was.

But if they are in service with el-cheapo cargo carriers, are they really available? I mean if the offer is right and the owners are happy to move on to other things, then sure. But if the owner want to stay in the air cargo business, a "cheap and cheerful" offer might not buy a replacement.

[James1978]

All right, then.. There's still going to be F-4E airframes available for Iran. The new Powell Administration would have the political capital to spend that would get reluctant Congress-critters on board for this (and the F-14A to B rebuild, selling surplus M-60s and AH-1Js, etc.) as "We need the new Iran as a potential ally against the Soviet Union and to keep Saddam on his toes."

Re: the F-4s: No way is the Powell Administration going to allow the AIM-120 to go to Iran. Which leaves the F-4F as those likely to be heading down under.

Haven't forgotten you or your emails! Will get back within a couple days.

[Bernard Woolley]

I seem to remember suggesting the Viking DHC-5NG Buffalo NG as a supplement/replacement for the DHC-4 Caribou in RAAF service.

[James1978]

Does anyone have a better 'cheap and cheerful aircraft' possibility? Is there a pool of DHC-4 anywhere? There was a DHC-4T conversion, this would actually be preferable to a Provider-Boxcar mix if there's a pool of Caribou anywhere.

What about the CASA C-212? It's an in-production aircraft.

Is there any way to hand wave the Short 330 into still being in production?

Is a rear ramp a requirement? Dornier 228 is still in production in India by HAL.

[drmarkbailey]

Craig:

There were (by 2000 @) a load of DHC-4 (20-30 odd) on their original engines working small, el-cheapo cargo flights across the Florida panhandle and parts west along the Gulf Coast to Galveston, I seem to recall they had a good deal going along the small airstrips across southern Louisiana. Again they’re ripe for conversion to Turbo-Caribou although there were still adequate spare engines and parts to keep them flying as-was.

James

On new aircraft. IMHO simply not going to happen on cost grounds. new aircraft cost serious money and the serious money has an ocean of higher priorities than light transports to support small detachments scattered across the top end.

DHC-5 Buffalo. Great aircraft, only 122 made vice 307 Caribou, so its much less likely to be available.

I suspect that no Caribou were retained at AMARC.

As discussed, I think the numbers needed are quite small: " ... the requirement is for about 30 machines, based out of the bare bases (say 6 operational in each, the rest being cycling through maintenance and attrition reserves)."

So maybe the best option is to start picking up whatever Caribou might be available for sale first, see how many are turned up, then look for other possible gap-fillers. Each 'cluster' of 10 machines is a flight at a bare base. 3 'clusters' are needed. The advantage of Caribou are that they are still in service in the RAAF in this era in reality and so certainly will be in TLW.

....

OK, scrap all of that! Via a Bharat Rakshak lead I found this!
https://aeropedia.com.au/content/pen-tu ... o-caribou/



Under a supplemental type certificate, Pen Turbo Aviation of Cape May Airport, New Jersey early in the 21st century undertook a re-engineering of the DHC-4A Caribou as a result of market demand for a turbine-powered variant of the Caribou. The conversion replaced the Pratt & Whitney R-2000 piston engines with the same Company’s Canadian-built PT6A-67T unit, the turbine engines increasing overall performance, reducing the basic weight whilst the normal take-off weight remained at 12,928 kg (28,500 lb), giving a payload of 4,536 kg (10,000 lb).

The Company has converted a number of Caribous to turbine power, and these have included N54NC (c/n 49), N55NC (c/n 61), N53NC (c/n 263), N52NC (c/n 26), N51NC (c/n 261), N56NC (c/n 133), N57NC (c/n 72), N82NC (c/n 72), N84NC (c/n 284) and N86NC (c/n 286). In the 1990s the Company obtained a number of retired aircraft, some ex-civil aircraft, some 20 or so from the Spanish Air Force, and a number from India.

In early 2010 Caribou Cargo of Queensland announced it had obtained a Caribou STOL transport fitted with turboprops to perform freight work in Australia, Papua-New Guinea and Asia where loads of up to 4,500 kg (9,921 lb) could be carried to small or unprepared airstrips, the aircraft being obtained from Pen Turbo, this aircraft fitted with PT6A-67T engines. However, by early 2019 the aircraft is not known to have arrived in Australia and the position as to its importation is not known.

However, further conversions have taken place, these including N238PT (c/n 238) and N303PT (c/n 303), the latter operating in rugged mountainous areas in Papua, taking up duties at Ilaga in 2016. N238PT operated in Haiti during emergencies in the area. In May 2016 N303PT became PK-SWW to Alfa Indonesia and was delivered to Ilaga Airport in Indonesian Papua. However, on 31 October that year it was on a charter flight from Tembagapura Airport to Ilaga Airport when it crashed into a mountain 11 km (7 miles) from Ilaga at a height of 3,962 m (13,000 ft) and was destroyed.

It is interesting to note that at one stage the RAAF was considering replacing the piston engines in its Caribous with the PT6 and an investigation of this was carried out, this being known as the “Tango Charlie” option. It was stated at the time the “Tango Charlie” proposal was unique as it was based on an existing, proven, flight-tested and certificated conversion design and would not incur risks associated with a new design. It also included other improvements resulting in the Caribou’s utility and value.

An analysis in 2000 indicated that a retrofit of the RAAF fleet would be revenue neutral against current operating costs within a five to eight year timeframe. It was found that with a fleet of Turbo Caribous No 38 Squadron’s effective strength would increase by over 25% as the achievable 96% availability would permit a significantly higher flying rate and rate of sorties completion. It was also found further refurbished aircraft modified to this configuration would be a credible option, and with initial in-country conversions there would be no loss of aircraft availability at the outset of any conversion program. However, the project did not go ahead and the RAAF Caribou fleet was retired in late 2009, eventually replaced by the Alenia C -27J Spartan.

A satellite shot shows 18 caribou sitting on their hardstand today!

Problem solved. Cycle them all through a turbo conversion using this company's design.

See the picture attached

Cheers: mark

[Craiglxviii]

There were (by 2000 @) a load of DHC-4 (20-30 odd) on their original engines working small, el-cheapo cargo flights across the Florida panhandle and parts west along the Gulf Coast to Galveston, I seem to recall they had a good deal going along the small airstrips across southern Louisiana. Again they’re ripe for conversion to Turbo-Caribou although there were still adequate spare engines and parts to keep them flying as-was.

But if they are in service with el-cheapo cargo carriers, are they really available? I mean if the offer is right and the owners are happy to move on to other things, then sure. But if the owner want to stay in the air cargo business, a "cheap and cheerful" offer might not buy a replacement.

Sure, make something smaller, more modern and turboprop available to them instead and they’d bite your arm off at the shoulder. Those particular Caribou were overkill for the jobs they were doing, but they were available and mega cheap to buy.

[Drunknsubmrnr]

If you’re looking for passenger/cargo out of small gravel or paved strips, there’s also the DHC-7.

[drmarkbailey]

Hmm. Good article here on the RAAF DHC-4 refurbishment program.

https://www.ausairpower.net/SP/DT-Turbo ... uly-05.pdf

OK, in 2006 the Lithuanian Government bought 3 C-27A for $75 million USD. So that outs a C-27A in (say) 2000 at approx US$22 million each. That's roughly AUD30M per.

There's no costing in the article. I'm going to make a genuinely wild guess that this DHC-4T upgrade, which is pitched at very small companies, is somewhere less than a million per plane. I DO know that the total rebuild and zero-lifing of Alliance Airlines Fokker 70 (11) and Fokker 100 (24) cost AUD2.4 to 3.2M per aircraft. They are a vastly more complex bird and it included a full avionics replacement and glass cockpit. They were also done individually as a hand-built job.

So an indicative RAAF price of AUD 1 million each does not seem too weird as this would be a production line job - tell me if you have strong disagreement or better data.

So rebuilding the 17 RAAF ones and adding 24 + 6 attrition from Penn Aviation (47 total) looks like something in the area of AUD50M, or the price of 1.5 C-27A.

Cheers: Mark

[drmarkbailey]

German F4F

"Like many NATO countries, Germany quickly became interested in the McDonnell F-4 Phantom II as a replacement for the Luftwaffe's ageing F-104s in Jagdgeschwader (interceptor) wings, as well as the G.91 in Jagdbombergeschwader (fighter-bomber) wings. The Luftwaffe was initially interested in a single-seat version of the Phantom but in the end chose a lighter, simplified version of the existing F-4E variant, which became known as the F-4F. It had a significant number of German-made components including a license-built J79 engine made locally by MTU. However, it featured a downgraded radar and could not be equipped with Sparrow missiles which essentially left it without beyond-visual range (BVR) capability. In the fighter-bomber role, it could operate a variety of US and NATO ordinance but standoff capability was limited at first, though later it could be armed with Maverick missiles. The F-4F fleet was given numerous modernizations over its lifetime, notably the Improved Combat Efficiency (ICE) program that was designed to keep them viable pending the introduction of the Eurofighter. This upgrade allowed them to use the more advanced AMRAAM missile as well as a more powerful radar. ICE-modernized Phantoms continued to soldier on with the Luftwaffe well after the introduction of their replacement, the last being phased out of service only until 2013."

"F-4F ICE (Improved Combat Efficiency): Modernization of 110 F-4Fs from 1991 to 1996 with Hughes APG-65 radar and the ability to use the AIM-120 AMRAAM guided missile. In addition, the following systems were installed: Honeywell H-423 navigation system, GEC Avionics CPU-143/A digital computer, Mil Std 1553R (digital data bus) and a Litton ALR-68(V)-2 radar warning receiver (now replaced by EADS' DASI). The machines were introduced to all fighter squadrons. In the mid-2000s, the era of the F-4 Phantom in the Bundeswehr Air Force ended, and the machines were gradually replaced by the Eurofighter."

175 provided, 110 upgraded under ICE.

When might the Typhoon fleet start to enter German service?

Cheers: mark

[Jotun]

When might the Typhoon fleet start to enter German service?

Cheers: mark

For sake of simplicity, I'd say 2001, along with Italy, Spain and the UK. The Typhoon is after all a multi-national project.

[James1978]

When might the Typhoon fleet start to enter German service?

Cheers: mark

For sake of simplicity, I'd say 2001, along with Italy, Spain and the UK. The Typhoon is after all a multi-national project.

For reference:

12th July 1995. ‘Eurofighter continues on course.’
-Aircraft Illustrated.
Despite some earlier setbacks to the programme, the first flight of Eurofighter prototype DA.7 has marked a continued run of success in development for the aircraft.
The Royal Air Force now expects to take delivery of its first aircraft in January 2001, achieving an interim operational capability in December of that year.

I'd figure the other partners are on the same schedule.

Although I could see the Italians trying to push their IOC and FOC to the left since they were still rocking F-104s. Unless they got some kind of interim capability in TLWverse like they did in @.

[James1978]

German F4F

175 provided, 110 upgraded under ICE.

Was the 110 ICE an @ pre or post-1989/reunification number? Might more be upgraded in TLWverse?

I believe the surviving fleet was 151 in 1989.

[Jotun]

German F4F

175 provided, 110 upgraded under ICE.

Was the 110 ICE an @ pre or post-1989/reunification number? Might more be upgraded in TLWverse?

I believe the surviving fleet was 151 in 1989.

The ICE upgrades were done between 1991 and 1996. in TLW, the rate would be the same thanks to the three years of Oskar Lafontaine being Chancellor.

[Craiglxviii]

Hmm. Good article here on the RAAF DHC-4 refurbishment program.

https://www.ausairpower.net/SP/DT-Turbo ... uly-05.pdf

OK, in 2006 the Lithuanian Government bought 3 C-27A for $75 million USD. So that outs a C-27A in (say) 2000 at approx US$22 million each. That's roughly AUD30M per.

There's no costing in the article. I'm going to make a genuinely wild guess that this DHC-4T upgrade, which is pitched at very small companies, is somewhere less than a million per plane. I DO know that the total rebuild and zero-lifing of Alliance Airlines Fokker 70 (11) and Fokker 100 (24) cost AUD2.4 to 3.2M per aircraft. They are a vastly more complex bird and it included a full avionics replacement and glass cockpit. They were also done individually as a hand-built job.

So an indicative RAAF price of AUD 1 million each does not seem too weird as this would be a production line job - tell me if you have strong disagreement or better data.

So rebuilding the 17 RAAF ones and adding 24 + 6 attrition from Penn Aviation (47 total) looks like something in the area of AUD50M, or the price of 1.5 C-27A.

Cheers: Mark

How many C-2s were kicking around by this point? Just a thought.

[James1978]

How many C-2s were kicking around by this point? Just a thought.

Maybe four C-2A.
Six C-2As made it to AMARC in 1987 out of nine surviving air frames. Two left in 1998, looks like maybe for instructional purposes.

All the C-2A(R)s would still be in active USN service.

[Bernard Woolley]

Thought I would remind everybody of this scene from Chapter 310.

*

0531 hours GMT. Vanimo Airport, Papua New Guinea.
Squadron Leader Stephen ‘Stevo’ Scully eased the DHC-4A Caribou down onto the asphalt runway of the small airport. Scully was Officer Commanding B Flight, 38 Squadron, which operated six of the RAAF’s ageing Caribous.

As he taxied the Caribou to the unloading ramp, he spotted another aircraft in the process of taking on passengers, parked next to his spot. The aircraft belonged to the squadron’s recently established C Flight.

*

The air forces of Australia and Canada had fortuitously found themselves both needing a replacement for their STOL transports at the same time. Caribous in the case of Australia and the CC-115 Buffalo in the case of Canada.
At one time, both nations had decided that the C-27J Spartan would fill their needs. Indeed, Australia had gone as far as procuring ten Spartans, but it had become clear that there was no aircraft out there that could quite replicate the capabilities of the Caribou or Buffalo, or at least be as economic to operate in harsh conditions.

Into this gap stepped Viking Air of Victoria, British Columbia. The company, a manufacturer of replacement parts for all out-of-production de Havilland Canada aircraft, had purchased the type certificates from Bombardier Aerospace for all versions of the DHC-1 through DHC-7 series aircraft, which gave them the right to manufacture and sell new aircraft of those types.

Viking Air had proposed to both the RAAF and Canada’s Air Command that it put the Buffalo back into production for both air forces. The new-build Buffalo, dubbed the DHC-5NG for ‘New Generation’ would be powered by Pratt & Whitney Canada PW100 turboprops, with six-bladed composite propellers, rather than the General Electric T64 of the original aircraft, which powered three-bladed propellers. It would also have a glass cockpit and Night Vision Goggle compatibility.

With its Caribous becoming increasingly difficult to operate, the RAAF had almost bitten Viking Air’s hand off, so keen were they to procure the aircraft. The deal offered to the Australians also included Caribou spare parts to keep the fleet going while the DHC-5NG was brought into service.

Air Command was a little less enthusiastic; its Buffalo fleet was not in the need of immediate replacement. However, it saw the logic of joining the programme as a larger production run would make each individual aircraft cheaper. Canada would be happy to wait a bit longer for its new CC-115B to be delivered, which would be after the last Australian aircraft was delivered.

The first four DHC-5NG had been delivered to the RAAF by late 2004, which had established C Flight of 38 Squadron, to act as an Operational Evaluation Unit, and more recently as an Operational Conversion Unit. On the outbreak of war, the flight had joined the rest of the squadron at Port Moresby.

*

Scully parked his aircraft and he and his co-pilot, Flight Lieutenant Kirsty ‘Jack’ Brabham, began shut down procedures, while the few passengers the aircraft was carrying disembarked and its cargo was unloaded. The soldiers were a mix of men from one of the platoons of Alpha Company, 12th/40th Battalion, Royal Tasmania Regiment, which provided Force Protection for the Australian units based in Papua New Guinea and members of an OMLT from the Australian Army Training Team Papua New Guinea.

*

Since Vanimo was home to a company sized outstation of the 2nd Battalion, The Royal Pacific Islands Regiment, it made sense for Australia to establish a presence alongside the PNG troops. A Fire Support Base having been constructed outside of town and a Forward Operating Base built closer to the border with Indonesia.
As during the First Confrontation, there had been encounters between PNGDF and their Indonesian counterparts along the border. But there had been not shots fired. Yet.

*

While the Caribou was being refuelled Scully and Brabham wandered over to speak to the crew of the Buffalo. The newer aircraft was taking on some items of cargo and a few soldiers who were headed back to the main Australian base at Port Moresby.

“Hello, Stevo, Jack, how ya doing?” The Buffalo’s pilot, Squadron Leader David ‘Daniel’ Radcliffe, said greeting the approaching pair.
“Can’t complain, mate, can’t complain.” Scully replied. “How you getting on?”
“Much the same as you, I expect.” Radcliffe said. “Loving the new Buff, as it happens.”
“Any chance we can take a look then, Dan?” Brabham asked.
“Sure.”

The Buffalo was slightly larger than its Caribou cousin, but the cockpit was a world away from the late 1950s design of the older aircraft. It looked more ergonomic and there were only a couple of old-style dials, evidently there for emergencies.

“Wow, it’s like the bloody Starship Enterprise in here!” Scully exclaimed.
“Welcome to the Twenty-First Century, mate.” Was Radcliffe’s reply.

*

[drmarkbailey]

This is canon?