History, Politics And Current Affairs

As for Shaw, I'm not as harsh on him. His ship was essentially hijacked by two legends with the mutinous aid of his first officer, then he stepped up in the best traditions of Starfleet despite being woefully outmatched, got his ass kicked, and was hopped up on painkillers when he went off on Picard. Would it have been better if he'd handled it like Sisko? Maybe. But if memory serves, this was only the second time we've seen a survivor of Wolf 359 tell Picard how they really felt. I suspect there are a lot more people out there - direct survivors or people who lost someone - who feel exactly like Shaw and Sisco. But most of them were never in a position to confront Picard, and the ones in Starfleet uniforms probably mostly rolled their eyes and bit their tongues when Starfleet Command put Picard right back in the big chair of 1701-D. But for Shaw, it's 35 years later and he's hopped up on pain killers in a crippled ship with a few hours of life support remaining, and the man who got them in this mess is holding court on the holodeck with enraptured junior officers, so why the hell not.

Wolf 359 is nearly 35 years in the past at this point, and the Dominion War is 25 years in the past. As we've seen, most of the current generation of Ensigns to Lieutenant Commanders were raised on the legend of Admiral Picard, and Wolf 359 is would have been a history lesson at Starfleet Academy for most of them. The vast majority of those officers would have trained and mentored by Dominion War veterans. Considering the losses in the Dominion War, Wolf 359 might not even crack the top ten for worst Starfleet ass kickings. But for those who were at Wolf 359, it was no battle like if they'd been fighting Cardasians or Jem'Hadar - it was a massacre that lasted maybe ten minutes and the Cube wasn't even scratched.

James1978 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 17, 2023 8:36 pm

Johnnie Lyle wrote: ↑Fri Mar 17, 2023 8:12 pm

James1978 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 17, 2023 7:44 pm Yea, that was a gut punch. Finally learning the fate of that character, and then what happened happens.
There was a lot of potential there.

Given how S3 likes flashbacks, I hope we see more of her in them. I also hope they can interweave more of the character into the storyline l, so while (probably) dead, the character is not gone from the remaining five episodes.

Hopefully! We got a small glimpse of the intensity that actress can bring to a role, and I for one would love to see more of that character.

The actress in question has phenomenal range and ability to play across the scale, so she could absolutely pull it off. Especially if they bookend Picard’s search with some flashbacks of her meetings .

Shaw is growing on me. He's still a dipsh*t from Chicago, but I think he's not as bad a captain as he initially appeared. There are depths to the character that Stashwick brings out really well. I can't say I blame Shaw for behaving the way he does. Imaging having to deal with nearly losing your ship to find that everything you believe in seems to have been corrupted by an enemy who could be anyone.

Wolf 359 is nearly 35 years in the past at this point, and the Dominion War is 25 years in the past.

With those two catastrophic events and the way the Galaxy has been since, I'm actually surprised that Starfleet has not returned to the more militaristic organisation it was during the TOS movie era. I would expect it to be a navy that does exploratory & scientific duties (like the RN in the past), rather than a primarily scientific and exploratory organisation that also serves as a defence force when necessary.

I have notice that Starfleet has gone a little 'tacti-cool'. Phasers are now carried in what look like drop holsters, rather than being stuck on Velcro patches.

Bernard Woolley wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 4:20 pm

Spoiler!

I am begining to think that Jack Crusher is a Changeling who doesn't know that they are a Changeling. Does that mean the 'real' Jack is lying dead in a ditch somewhere? Was he replaced very early in life?

Who knows?
Btw, Spoilers don't work if you quote something or have another spoiler as well. Which was why I have three posts.

Bernard Woolley wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 4:45 pm Who knows?

Spoiler!

However, it was her who discovered that Changelings have evolved to be able to evade normal detection methods. Way things are, this faction of Changelings could have well replaced most key personnel in Starfleet and the Federation. To borrow from Doctor Who, it's not an invasion, its an occupation.

Btw, Spoilers don't work if you quote something or have another spoiler as well. Which was why I have three posts.

It’s why I keep pressing Craig to get the redacted option back, so it just blacks out the text.

Bernard Woolley wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 4:17 pm Shaw is growing on me. He's still a dipsh*t from Chicago, but I think he's not as bad a captain as he initially appeared. There are depths to the character that Stashwick brings out really well. I can't say I blame Shaw for behaving the way he does. Imaging having to deal with nearly losing your ship to find that everything you believe in seems to have been corrupted by an enemy who could be anyone.

Wolf 359 is nearly 35 years in the past at this point, and the Dominion War is 25 years in the past.

With those two catastrophic events and the way the Galaxy has been since, I'm actually surprised that Starfleet has not returned to the more militaristic organisation it was during the TOS movie era. I would expect it to be a navy that does exploratory & scientific duties (like the RN in the past), rather than a primarily scientific and exploratory organisation that also serves as a defence force when necessary.

I have notice that Starfleet has gone a little 'tacti-cool'. Phasers are now carried in what look like drop holsters, rather than being stuck on Velcro patches.

I always viewed the Dominion War causing Starfleet the same kind of psychological wounds as WWI inflicted on the British and the French, and even the US. The Prime Directive is isolationist almost by design, and the Federation deciding to circle the wagons and tend to their own grievous wounds makes sense.

I like Liam Shaw the man, even as I note his flaws as a captain. I also like how he may have had his epiphany and catharsis with Picard, but he’s still an asshole, and the writers didn’t give him a 180-turn immediately. He’s a great character.

Section 31 has ATTACK TRIBBLES!!!!!!!!

Mike wins the bet. 1701-A lived on, in the Starfleet Museum.

That was both incredible and hard.

Section 31 has an interesting little collection there, including one very interesting "break glass in emergency"/"that's GOT to be a treaty violation" item that I caught. Makes me wonder whatever happened to the prototype Starfleet cloaking device. But why on earth are they hanging on to deceased remains?

But what I really want to know, is what's in Hangar Bay 12.

I am getting curious as to why Seven seems to have lost touch with everyone from Voyager except Janeway.

Given this season is as much a DS9 continuation as a TNG continuation, I'm hoping we might see somebody besides Worf. It's a damn shame René Auberjonois isn't still with us.
Ditto for Voyager. I figure Harry Kim might still be in Starfleet, possibly Tuvok. Seeing The Doctor might be fun, and raises the question of why no EMH Mark ## when Titan was getting the crap kicked out of it - we know later ships had holo-projectors throughout the ship.

James1978 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 24, 2023 5:38 am Section 31 has an interesting little collection there, including one very interesting "break glass in emergency"/"that's GOT to be a treaty violation" item that I caught. Makes me wonder whatever happened to the prototype Starfleet cloaking device. But why on earth are they hanging on to deceased remains?

Cloning? I bet they may have their hands on some other figures as well.

James1978 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 24, 2023 5:38 am Section 31 has an interesting little collection there, including one very interesting "break glass in emergency"/"that's GOT to be a treaty violation" item that I caught. Makes me wonder whatever happened to the prototype Starfleet cloaking device. But why on earth are they hanging on to deceased remains?

But what I really want to know, is what's in Hangar Bay 12.

I am getting curious as to why Seven seems to have lost touch with everyone from Voyager except Janeway.

Given this season is as much a DS9 continuation as a TNG continuation, I'm hoping we might see somebody besides Worf. It's a damn shame René Auberjonois isn't still with us.
Ditto for Voyager. I figure Harry Kim might still be in Starfleet, possibly Tuvok. Seeing The Doctor might be fun, and raises the question of why no EMH Mark ## when Titan was getting the crap kicked out of it - we know later ships had holo-projectors throughout the ship.

Icheb’s death may have played a role in Seven losing touch with VOYAGER crewmates. His death has been roundly panned by many critics, but it very very clearly illustrated Starfleet’s isolationist bent after the Dominion War and the attack on Mars.

Were that scene set in ENT, TOS, TNG, DS9 or VOY, it would have ended with Archer, Kirk, Riker, Sisko or Janeway busting the door in, phasering Dr. Bubblegum von Mengele to Hell, and then sweeping Icheb up to be saved by Phlox, McCoy, Crusher, Bashir or the Doctor. Even when people couldn’t be saved, like Lal or Peter Preston, somebody tried.

Starfleet didn’t come for Icheb, even though that was COLEMAN’s job - to hell with orders, fly her apart and fight anything that gets in the way of saving their people.

That has to rankle Seven, especially if she placed Icheb on COLEMAN so he’d be properly mentored and taken care of.

We see that tension with Shaw early in the season. Shaw is focused on saving lives and doesn’t understand there’s a point where you have to risk everything to keep the faith with your crew. A last stand requires a cavalry.

Yes, there’s a time and place where you have to conclude the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one. But there’s also a time and place where the needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many, where keeping the faith requires risking the ship to save a crewman.

COLEMAN didn’t understand that, to their eternal shame.

Kinda glad I was wrong about Jack Crusher.

It is a little bit disturbing that Star Fleet seems to be collecting bodies of famous captains. Daystrom Station has Archer, Kirk and Picard all stored away. I guess Admiral Janeway better make sure she is cremated if she doesn’t want to end up there too!

The attack Tribble was funny and did remind me of of a facehugger from Alien. However, they have a Genesis Device? That’s a little worrying.

On a happier note, I loved seeing the Fleet Museum. So many cool Easter eggs there!

Bernard Woolley wrote: ↑Sat Mar 25, 2023 4:05 am Kinda glad I was wrong about Jack Crusher.

I hope they didn’t expend Wesley as a Traveler in Season 2, when we really need him to show up in Season 3, if only to address the family drama. Beverly is high-order pissed that Wesley hasn’t checked in, and there’s clearly something in the Howard/Crusher line that makes them special.

Maybe that’s why Jack’s hallucinations have kicked off early?

Bernard Woolley wrote: ↑Sat Mar 25, 2023 4:05 am It is a little bit disturbing that Star Fleet seems to be colle

I dunno. It seems in keeping with Starfleet tradition that their internal security is abysmal.

I somehow managed to hit post before finishing that last sentence! What I thought was disturbing was the collecting of dead famous captains, rather than allowing them to rest in piece. Does potentially give Shatner a way back into ST in the future, though!

Bernard Woolley wrote: ↑Sat Mar 25, 2023 4:13 am I somehow managed to hit post before finishing that last sentence! What I thought was disturbing was the collecting of dead famous captains, rather than allowing them to rest in piece. Does potentially give Shatner a way back into ST in the future, though!

It’s super creepy in so many awful ways.

Section 31 really is the worst of Starfleet.

Johnnie Lyle wrote: ↑Sat Mar 25, 2023 3:15 amIcheb’s death may have played a role in Seven losing touch with VOYAGER crewmates. His death has been roundly panned by many critics, but it very very clearly illustrated Starfleet’s isolationist bent after the Dominion War and the attack on Mars.

Were that scene set in ENT, TOS, TNG, DS9 or VOY, it would have ended with Archer, Kirk, Riker, Sisko or Janeway busting the door in, phasering Dr. Bubblegum von Mengele to Hell, and then sweeping Icheb up to be saved by Phlox, McCoy, Crusher, Bashir or the Doctor. Even when people couldn’t be saved, like Lal or Peter Preston, somebody tried.

Starfleet didn’t come for Icheb, even though that was COLEMAN’s job - to hell with orders, fly her apart and fight anything that gets in the way of saving their people.

That has to rankle Seven, especially if she placed Icheb on COLEMAN so he’d be properly mentored and taken care of.

We see that tension with Shaw early in the season. Shaw is focused on saving lives and doesn’t understand there’s a point where you have to risk everything to keep the faith with your crew. A last stand requires a cavalry.

Yes, there’s a time and place where you have to conclude the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one. But there’s also a time and place where the needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many, where keeping the faith requires risking the ship to save a crewman.

COLEMAN didn’t understand that, to their eternal shame.

I think you're reaching re. the USS Coleman. I don't really feel like rewatching any of Season 1 at the moment, but a quick glance at Memory Alpha says Icheb was on leave from the USS Coleman to work with the Fenris Rangers at the time of his death. In that light, I'm not sure Starfleet knew he'd been taken, let alone the Coleman & Crew even if they were anywhere nearby to do anything about it.

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ST:Picard isn't Roddenberry Star Trek.

TNG gave us a rose colored Gene Roddenberry view of both the Federation and Starfleet. The 1701-D was was Starfleet's flagship and by and large, her crew was the best of the best. Even if she wasn't the flagship, she was still Galaxy-class at a time when that was the pinnacle Federation/Starfleet technology and engineering. They got the best.

Voyager was similar. Brand new ship and among the first of the Intrepid-class and full of the latest tech, so she had a mostly first pick crew.
Though I do agree with the assessment that ST:Voyager should have looked a lot more like the BSG reboot.

DS9 got more into the grime and gray areas. By and large assigned top flight Starfleet personnel due to the importance of preparing Bajor for entry into the Federation, even before the discovery of the wormhole. But, they were out on the frontier and a lot of things were less clear cut than they were in the heart of the Federation.

At this point, the Titan is at least 20 years old. My understanding is that she's a pre-Dominion War design that probably incorporated some wartime lessons. My impression is that even in her "Neo-Constitution Refit" state, she's far from top of the line - she's a workhorse, not a showpiece. She's above the Cerritos , but a long way from the 1701-D in her day.
And I suspect that Shaw is far more representative of the average Starfleet Captain than we might want to admit.

Bernard Woolley wrote: ↑Sat Mar 25, 2023 4:05 am Kinda glad I was wrong about Jack Crusher.

It is a little bit disturbing that Star Fleet seems to be collecting bodies of famous captains. Daystrom Station has Archer, Kirk and Picard all stored away. I guess Admiral Janeway better make sure she is cremated if she doesn’t want to end up there too!

The attack Tribble was funny and did remind me of of a facehugger from Alien. However, they have a Genesis Device? That’s a little worrying.

On a happier note, I loved seeing the Fleet Museum. So many cool Easter eggs there!

...

Johnnie Lyle: It’s super creepy in so many awful ways.

Section 31 really is the worst of Starfleet.

Folks, we've talked about this: there is no Section 31. And by the way, Johnnie, Fleet Security at SFHQ called; they wanna talk to you about something.

Mike