Today I Learned.....

[MikeKozlowski]

...That there was apparently a plan for ARA General Belgrano to charge the British forces at South Georgia during the recovery, on or about 25 Apr 82.

Not sure yet why it didn't happen, but reflect on this - RN forces on site were HMS Antrim, HMS Plymouth, HMS Brilliant, and HMS Conqueror, supported by HMS Endurance. Depending on where Conqueror was when Belgrano showed up, it would have been three frigates up against an honest-to-Bull-Halsey CL with real armor and (as it turns out) newly re-gunned 6". Gentlemen, place your bets....

Mike

[jemhouston]

ARA General Belgrano had two destroyers for escort. I suspect Belgrano would be the only ship standing, but badly damaged.

[Pdf27]

Would be interesting.

• There's a decent missile throw weight in the RN force (2x Sea Slug launchers (24 missiles), 8x Exocet, 8x Sea Skua) - although their gun armament is badly outclassed.
• General Belgrano is probably alone here - Hipólito Bouchard and Piedra Buena were both barely-modernised Allen M Sumner destroyers which joined the Belgrano on the 28th of April.
• Top speed on all the ships is about the same - Belgrano is faster on paper, but is getting old now so it'll probably come out in the wash depending on sea state.

Best guess is the RN throw every missile they have at Belgrano, wrecking everything topside and probably causing some nasty fires. At which point it breaks contact and everyone goes home for tea and medals.

[Bernard Woolley]

Conqueror puts some Mk.8s into her as in @?

[MikeKozlowski]

Conqueror puts some Mk.8s into her as in @?

Bernard,

If she's close enough - it depends on when Belgrano actually gets into range.

Mike

[Bernard Woolley]

As with pdf27, I would suggest that when Belgrano is detected the RN will throw Exocets at her. Even half of them hitting will do a lot of damage. Follow up with Sea Slug; IIRC it out-ranges 6in guns. The Sea Wolf on Brilliant and Seacat on Antrim and Plymouth can also be used in an SSM role. That’s potentially a lot of missiles the RN can throw at Belgrano. IMVHO, they’d wreck her upperworks and start some nasty fires. Have the Lynx from Brilliant hit her with Sea Skua and if necessary the Wasps from the other ships with AS-12.

If Belgrano doesn’t turn away after her encounter with Exocets, Sea Slugs, or the other missiles, then the Mark 6 twin 4.5s on Antrim and Plymouth can put out 24rpm. Though, IMVHO, they’d be shooting at a ship that would already be on fire and in trouble.

[kdahm]

General Belgrano is in a world of trouble. She has to get within 20,000 yards of the British forces without being detected in order to use her guns. In the meantime, as mentioned earlier, the British have a lot of missiles that can hit from 20-60 miles out. One of the other things that the British have is helicopters to search out the Argentine forces. Belgrano had one Alouette III on board, but I have no idea how operational it was.

The biggest factor is that General Belgrano almost certainly had poor damage control. It probably wasn't even to the level of WWII IJN DC, much less WWII USN standards. That means a few missiles that start fires could doom the ship.

[Pdf27]

Not convinced the 4.5" or the AS-12s would be very effective - the 4.5" shells are exactly what Belgrano's armour scheme was designed to protect against, and AS-12s have a penetration of 20mm coupled to a very short effective range which puts the helicopters in AA range. The RN would try if things got that bad, but I can't see them succeeding. Similar problem with Sea Wolf and Seacat - short range and not a lot of bang.

[David Newton]

Not convinced the 4.5" or the AS-12s would be very effective - the 4.5" shells are exactly what Belgrano's armour scheme was designed to protect against, and AS-12s have a penetration of 20mm coupled to a very short effective range which puts the helicopters in AA range. The RN would try if things got that bad, but I can't see them succeeding. Similar problem with Sea Wolf and Seacat - short range and not a lot of bang.

Very effective at smashing up any fire control that the other missiles have missed however. Armour would stop them, but in order to fight a modern ship you have to have the stuff outside the armour as well. True in WWII and even more true by the Falklands. Take out the rangefinders and General Belgrano would essentially be both helpless and useless. Fires started in the upperworks would then spread through the ship due to dodgy damage control and down it would go.

[Craiglxviii]

Just remember that Sea Slug had a secondary anti surface mode (MICAWBER); the RN reckoned that 3-4 salvoes (6-8 missiles) would be enough to take down a SVERDLOV. Pretty equivalent in size to a BROOKLYN.

Also remember that the warhead on Sea Slug was 200lb (!) whilst that of Exocet was 364lb… and that Sea Slug would be doing double the speed of Exocet (1,370kts vs 680kts) so kinetic energy delivery on target would be much greater. It also outranged MM.38 Exocet with an anti-surface range of 35nm.

(The more I look at these numbers, the more I respect the County class actually…)

Also (also) remember that the 4.5”/52 gun had a 24,000 yard range whilst the 6”/47 on BELGRANO could max out at 26,118 yards… which given the weather is going to mean the same thing.

Of course the one thing that hasn’t been mentioned is the SHars carrying out their anti-shipping mission…

[MikeKozlowski]

Just remember that Sea Slug had a secondary anti surface mode (MICAWBER); the RN reckoned that 3-4 salvoes (6-8 missiles) would be enough to take down a SVERDLOV. Pretty equivalent in size to a BROOKLYN.

Also remember that the warhead on Sea Slug was 200lb (!) whilst that of Exocet was 364lb… and that Sea Slug would be doing double the speed of Exocet (1,370kts vs 680kts) so kinetic energy delivery on target would be much greater. It also outranged MM.38 Exocet with an anti-surface range of 35nm.

(The more I look at these numbers, the more I respect the County class actually…)

Also (also) remember that the 4.5”/52 gun had a 24,000 yard range whilst the 6”/47 on BELGRANO could max out at 26,118 yards… which given the weather is going to mean the same thing.

Of course the one thing that hasn’t been mentioned is the SHars carrying out their anti-shipping mission…

....Oh, I hear C:MO calling.....

Mike

[Craiglxviii]

Just remember that Sea Slug had a secondary anti surface mode (MICAWBER); the RN reckoned that 3-4 salvoes (6-8 missiles) would be enough to take down a SVERDLOV. Pretty equivalent in size to a BROOKLYN.

Also remember that the warhead on Sea Slug was 200lb (!) whilst that of Exocet was 364lb… and that Sea Slug would be doing double the speed of Exocet (1,370kts vs 680kts) so kinetic energy delivery on target would be much greater. It also outranged MM.38 Exocet with an anti-surface range of 35nm.

(The more I look at these numbers, the more I respect the County class actually…)

Also (also) remember that the 4.5”/52 gun had a 24,000 yard range whilst the 6”/47 on BELGRANO could max out at 26,118 yards… which given the weather is going to mean the same thing.

Of course the one thing that hasn’t been mentioned is the SHars carrying out their anti-shipping mission…

....Oh, I hear C:MO calling.....

Mike

Sorry Mikey, explain that to me please?

[Poohbah]

Just remember that Sea Slug had a secondary anti surface mode (MICAWBER); the RN reckoned that 3-4 salvoes (6-8 missiles) would be enough to take down a SVERDLOV. Pretty equivalent in size to a BROOKLYN.

Also remember that the warhead on Sea Slug was 200lb (!) whilst that of Exocet was 364lb… and that Sea Slug would be doing double the speed of Exocet (1,370kts vs 680kts) so kinetic energy delivery on target would be much greater. It also outranged MM.38 Exocet with an anti-surface range of 35nm.

(The more I look at these numbers, the more I respect the County class actually…)

Also (also) remember that the 4.5”/52 gun had a 24,000 yard range whilst the 6”/47 on BELGRANO could max out at 26,118 yards… which given the weather is going to mean the same thing.

Of course the one thing that hasn’t been mentioned is the SHars carrying out their anti-shipping mission…

....Oh, I hear C:MO calling.....

Mike

Sorry Mikey, explain that to me please?

Command: Modern Operations. Insanely detailed real-time simulation of naval and air operations.

[Craiglxviii]

....Oh, I hear C:MO calling.....

Mike

Sorry Mikey, explain that to me please?

Command: Modern Operations. Insanely detailed real-time simulation of naval and air operations.

Oooh. I’ve been looking at Sea Power but not heard of that one.

[Craiglxviii]

Found on another site, but re. ANTRIM and Sea Slug whilst down south…

Hi, I served onboard HMS Antrim during the Falklands War as a Weapon Engineering Artificer.
She did Fire a salvo of two SeaSlug missiles in the Surface to Air mode whilst in San Carlos waters or "Bomb Alley" as we called it.
As has quite rightly been pointed out, it was impossible for us to use the 901 Radar or any other Radar apart from the 1006 Nav radar (which was worthless anyway because it was the most beautiful sunny clear day you could hope for!).
However, Antrim was the Command ship for the Flotilla of vessels entering Bomb Alley and went in first. Antrim was designed primarily as an Anti Aircraft vessel and on the way to the Falklands it was assumed that she would sit outside of the islands and provide medium-long range air cover. However, she also had another feature that was considered more important when we got there and that was her 4.5" Mark 6 turret, which had two Barrels. This allowed her to provide a sustained rate of NGS (Naval Gunnery Support) to support the landings for the army. There were vessels with the newer single barrel 4.5" Mk8 turret, but the Antrim was actually better designed for NGS because she had a dedicated Analogue Fire Control computer called the "Box 11" in the 4.5 TS.
Antrims Box 11 was maintained by CPOWEA "Billy" Budd, who was an absolute genius with Synchro systems allowing Antrim to consistently win NGS Trophies every year he was onboard because his Analogue Computer had a constant feedback system that allowed it to make finite small corrections constantly right up to the time the trigger was pulled. Newer digital systems could only make digital corrections at the rate the computer asked for it.

Another feature was the fact that in addition to Fire control radars, the Antrim still had WW2 aimers "buckets" on both sides of the ship manned by Gunnery Trained seamen. The buckets also fed into the Box 11.

So, the skipper called a meeting of the weapon engineering senior rates and told them that we were going in first and that radar fire control was out of the question but he wanted some way to chuck as much lead into the air as possible when the Argentinian planes turned up.
This led to "GASH MODE". I have discussed it many times but I have never seen it documented before or after the Falklands. Also, as far as I know, it was only ever used on Antrim. The Chief of the 901 TS said that they could manually train the launcher by utilising the test synchro inputs on the console in the TS. This was achieved using a device called a Bonzo that was connected to the auxiliary inputs to the TS and was regularly used for testing purposes for the launcher when we didn't want to flash up the 901 radar. Like when we were alongside and we wanted to do bore-sight tests.
The Bonzo could either output a 360 degree Synchro signal utilising the large 360 dial on the top of the Bonzo or it could produce an SHM Synchro signal. (Simple Harmonic Motion). However, the input to the TS for the Bonzo was on the console itself in the TS inside the ship and the skipper wanted control on the bridge wings.
Enter Billy Budd and our Gyro's Chief. Both bridge wings had gyro controlled compass bowls fed from the ships gyro system. However, Antrim had an "A" and a "B" gyro feed via a switch and a small synchro repeater box on each wing. By disconnecting the "B" Gyro output and utilising its synchro chain throughout the ship all the way back to the SeaSlug TS the Bonzo could be put on the wings and control the direction of the launcher relative to ships head.
By combining this with a 2-core Damage Control telephone cable run from bulkhead to bulkhead, all the way from the wings, back to the operations room firing circuits, a piece of broom handle, some masking tape, a few screws and a BIG micro switch robbed from the door interlocks of the 965 radar cabinet, "GASH Mode" was born.
It allowed the launcher to be trained on to the bearing given to us by an army spotter on the ridge, by radio. And to pull the trigger on a salvo of 2 SeaSlug and 4 SeaCat missiles. As the Slugs split from 2 missiles into 2 missiles + 8 booster rockets very quickly the Argentinian pilots dropping over the hill were faced with 1 Sea Wolf missile from a Type 22 and apparently 14 missiles from us.

As command ship we had a full compliment of "Secret Squirrells" that we had picked up at Ascension Islands. They picked up and recorded the transmissions from the Argentinian Pilots. The general jist of their message was "Oh @%%+! What was that?"
They "bugged out" and dropped their bombs over the ocean on the way home.
Unfortunately they identified the Antrim as a serious anti aircraft threat and the next bombing run saw us "cop" a 1000lb bomb that went straight through the launcher flash door, completely around a live missile in the right side lane and back up into the Aft Heads.
The debris caused by all the dust from the breaking porcelain toilet bowls made the mid-ships repair party think it was smoke and that it was a fire. The First Aid fire attack party ran in, and 30 seconds later ran out again, FAST!

Funnier still, was the fact that Antrim had been acting as Bread Ship for a number of the smaller ships who didn't have the large bread ovens that Antrim had. This had resulted in some predictable problems on these smaller ships, with a few members of their crew getting a bit "bunged up".
One particular rating, an LWEM(R) [Leading Weapon Engineering Mechanic (Radio)], had just been helicopter transferred to the Antrim the previous night. Apart from plenty of "Roughage", Antrim also had a proper Medical Officer onboard.
This LWEM(R) was attached to the Aft damage control team who were based in the after junior rates dining hall, which was ALSO right next to the after Heads "Perfect"! He was sat in "Trap No 5" at the time of the arrival of the 1000lb bomb. After a great deal of noise, and yards of smoke and dust, he poked his head out of the trap to be greeted by the sight that all but 4 of the traps had been devastated. As the dust settled he saw the Bomb!
He returned to his own ship later that day, having informed the MO that he no longer had constipation !!

The bomb put paid to any further messing around with the SeaSlug system , so Gash Mode was de-rigged.

I KNOW all this for a fact, because I helped rig the damage control cables for the firing circuit and I stayed up until 3am the night before working with Chief Budd on the Synchro modifications. It was a thing of beauty.

Glamourous Organ (Glamorgan) lobbed so many shells into Port Stanley's airfield every night that she smooth-bored all the rifling out of both of her 4.5" barrels. As Antrim had beaten "Glam" to the only spare 4.5" barrel from the Atlantic Conveyor, she decided to start lobbing SeaSlugs at Port Stanley instead by manually pointing the 901 beam at the airport buildings. One army spotter said he saw one Slug skim across the airfield, flow up the nearby hillside, and set fire to all the tents of an Argentinian light howitzer group. The slug didn't explode but it really upset them !

Pick the bones out of THAT!
Chris "Eats" Eaton
Lead Singer of "Freddie Fearnought and the ICABA Men"
Found at your dining hall queue every day!

[Nightwatch2]

why couldn't they use any radars?

[Pdf27]

why couldn't they use any radars?

Sea Slug was a first generation beam-riding SAM designed for use against Bear bombers in the North Atlantic. Dealing with terrain clutter was something that never came to it. And San Carlos had deliberately terrible sight lines…

IMG_0603.jpeg

[Paul Nuttall]

Mmhh cluster SAM....

[Nightwatch2]

why couldn't they use any radars?

Sea Slug was a first generation beam-riding SAM designed for use against Bear bombers in the North Atlantic. Dealing with terrain clutter was something that never came to it. And San Carlos had deliberately terrible sight lines…
IMG_0603.jpeg

I suspected as much but it sounded like they couldn’t use any radars including gun fire control.

The cluster fire tactic was pretty good! The Argentinian pilots initial reaction was pretty good!